>> Jeniffer: Hello and welcome to the premise. I'm Jennifer

Thompson. I'm, Chad Thompson, and we are here today with

Zibby Owens. Zibby, welcome to the

promise.

>> Zibby Owens: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

>> Jeniffer: Yay. This is gonna be fun. So I met

Zibi when she was so gracious, and you came and

spoke at the fourth annual San Diego Writers

Festival. I don't know if you remember meeting me. It was right

out in front of one of our food tents.

They were cooking meat, and there was, like, smoke in the air, and it's, like, super

sunny and beating down on us. And I was, like, sweating, and I

walked up to you, I'm like, oh, my God, it's so good to meet you. And you're looking at me like, who the

hell are you?

>> Zibby Owens: No, I totally remember that. I

totally remember the whole thing. It was really fun.

>> Jeniffer: It was cool. And I got to meet Kyle, who is very,

handsome and, just as sweet and gracious as

can be. And, Yeah, and then you were a sponsor

of our fifth annual, so we just. Thank you so much for

your support and, well, everything you do

and publishing in books.

>> Zibby Owens: You're so welcome. I'm sorry I couldn't be there last time.

>> Jeniffer: Well, next year. There's always next year.

So let me start out by telling our lovely

listeners a little bit about you. Zibby

Owens is the author of a novel,

bookends, a memoir, m of love, loss, and

literature, and the children's book Princess

Charming. She is also the editor of two

anthologies. She's a frequent contributor to Good Morning

America and other outlets. She has been

called NYC's most powerful book

fluencer, which I think is absolutely true, and I can't wait

to dive in and talk more about that. She is the creator

and host of the award winning daily podcast

is it really daily? You do it every day.

>> Zibby Owens: I have been doing it every day. I went to five a week

about three weeks ago.

>> Jeniffer: Oh, good for you. I'm like, I am so tired just reading that

sentence. The almost daily week

daily podcast. Moms don't have time

to read books. She is the co founder and CEO of

publishing house Ziby Books, owner of

Zibby's Bookshop, an independent bookstore in Santa

Monica, California, and creator of the

Zibi verse la Times

community of book lovers, for which she offers

retreats, classes, special events, a book club, a writing

group, and more under the Zivi media

umbrella. She's a graduate of Yale University and

Harvard Business School. She currently lives in New York with

four kids, ages nine to 16. Is that

accurate?

>> Zibby Owens: Yes.

>> Jeniffer: And, of course, her husband, Kyle, which I've already

mentioned, who is the co founder, and, I'm sorry, co

president and founder of Morning

Moon Production. So, again, Zivi

Owens. Welcome. Welcome to the premise.

>> Zibby Owens: Thank you. I just love the way you speak and read.

You have, like, the perfect voice for this. So I'm just gonna take

that audio clip and play it whenever I need a bio.

>> Jeniffer: There you go. Yeah, please do. You're like, and here's my

bio.

>> Zibby Owens: And exactly.

>> Jeniffer: You're very welcome to, You do so much, it kind of blows

my mind. I imagine you have a big

team of great people who help make all this happen.

>> Zibby Owens: Can, you imagine if I was like, no, no, it's really just me.

>> Jeniffer: It's all just me. I do it all.

>> Zibby Owens: No, I have a whole team. They

are wonderful, truly fabulous women.

We have one man, actually, but,

>> Jeniffer: We always have to have the token mail. I have chad.

>> Zibby Owens: Yeah, there you go. You do.

>> Jeniffer: Also my husband, so he's a little more than token, but

anyway,

>> Zibby Owens: But yes, I have really fabulous women

leading every division, and it's been

wonderful to foster a lot of those

careers, and some of them came in at totally different

jobs, and we've figured out what everyone's great at

and just, keep moving people around. So, yeah, it's been great.

>> Jeniffer: That makes me happy to hear you say that. So many people are like, oh,

I'm not good at this, so I'll learn how to get better. And

I'm like, well, how about you just don't do that and do what you're good

at and stop wasting

time?

>> Zibby Owens: A, healthy mix is good.

>> Jeniffer: Well, I guess sometimes we have to do things we don't like, right?

>> Zibby Owens: Right.

>> Jeniffer: So let's go back to the beginning. You have literally

started an empire out of sharing stories and empowering

authors. But didn't that empire

start in your closet? Do I have that right?

>> Zibby Owens: not my closet, but my.

>> Jeniffer: Someone told me she started in her closet. I was like,

oh, my God, that is awesome. Okay, so tell us.

>> Zibby Owens: Well, the first podcast I ever did was into my

phone, you know, perched on the side of my bed. So

maybe that's what you heard.

>> Jeniffer: Okay.

>> Zibby Owens: After that, I got a microphone,

same one that I still have, and slapped it on my

desk in my office. And that's where I've been ever since.

>> Jeniffer: Which we got to ask which microphone?

>> Zibby Owens: I have a blue yeti. What do you have?

>> Jeniffer: I don't know. Chad, what do I have? Well, Jennifer is

speaking into an electro voice re 20,

which then goes in. Yeah, whatever that is. And what are

you using, Chad? Same one. Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah, I don't

know about these things. I just sit down and talk. That's for the three

audio nerds in our listenership.

>> Zibby Owens: I googled easiest podcast

microphone. Easiest podcast

platform. This is like the

bare bones, not too many buttons.

>> Jeniffer: So why, like, what made you decide to start a

podcast?

>> Zibby Owens: Well, I really wanted to sell a book, to be honest

with you. I had been trying to get a book

published for my entire life, pretty

much since I was nine, and decided I was going to be an

author. it's not quite the straight line that

I had hoped it would be, but that's okay.

I had just gotten divorced

and had some time on my hands that I wasn't

used to having every other weekend when the kids would go with their

dad. And I decided to, sort of

intentionally get back into reading, which I loved, even though I had been

reading, but, like, really get into it and get back into

writing and writing essays and all the

things I like to do. And I started

writing essays about parenting. After a year, I

had a lot of essays, and by then, I was,

I think, engaged to Kyle, or dating Kyle. Anyway, he

suggested that I turn my essays

into a book, and I made a joke. Ugh. like, moms don't have time to read

books. And then I thought, oh, that's so funny. That's what I'll

call my book. So I tried shopping that around. I was not on

social media. I didn't have a platform.

All the agents I talked to were like, no way.

And then a girlfriend suggested, well, why don't you start a podcast?

And I thought, well, why would I do that? I don't

even really listen to podcasts. I don't know how to do that.

But I figured if the book that I was trying

to write was going to be thrown away, at least I could save that funny

title and use it for a podcast. And then I could talk

to authors on the podcast, which is something that

I love doing. And I had my first, pen pal relationship with

an author when I was ten. And

I just think authors are such rock stars,

and this whole thing is like a dream

come true. And it all started with this whole, okay,

well, I'll just try it and see what happens attitude.

And it's all gone from there.

>> Jeniffer: I think one of the things I like most about your podcast

is it's so real. It's like, And you

just said I was in bed and I slapped it all together.

I looked it up and I did that, and I'm still doing that, but it's

like, it feels just so genuine and

authentic and real, and I think that makes

people comfortable and more at home.

>> Zibby Owens: Thank you. It, is real.

>> Jeniffer: None of this real.

>> Zibby Owens: I don't know about your podcast, but, yes, this is

actually just me talking into my microphone. I don't know.

I'm not good at sort of bluster and,

false anything. but you know what? I don't know. I just

tell it like it is, I guess.

>> Jeniffer: But let's talk about that for a minute. Cause, this is one of the things I do is I

help authors develop branding so they can get

published. And, you know, and I'm always telling people, well, start a

podcast, start writing articles, and everyone thinks,

oh, my God, it has to be really polished and professional

and perfect. And Chad is

actually, he said this to me several years ago,

Jennifer, perfect is the enemy of done. Is that

what you said? and it's so true.

Like, we can just kill ourselves and our creative energy

by trying to make something perfect when

really we could just do it and see what happens. And that's what you

did?

>> Zibby Owens: Yes. Although I will say, and I know

the first one I did, because on my bed, I did read

an essay I had written as my first one. But for all

subsequent author interviews, which the show ended up

becoming exclusively about, I was

so prepared for each one. So

I sort of relentlessly almost studied.

Before meeting any author, I would send over

a list of questions. I would have quotes. You know, I

viewed it like an assignment, which, like a journalist, by the way.

Yeah, I'd love school. I just, like, was like, okay, here's my

deadline, and here's my assignment. So it didn't have to

be perfect, but I knew I had to be as prepared as possible,

and then whatever happened, happened. So I, think that's

my approach in general as well,

that I can do everything I can,

and then the world takes over.

>> Jeniffer: And was there a time when you were like, oh, my God, that was terrible, what am I

doing? Or did you always feel like, yeah, I got

this?

>> Zibby Owens: no, I was not like, I got this. I had no idea what I was doing.

I mean, I was sweating so much

in the beginning, just like, sweating buckets.

I was so nervous, and

I wasn't, under any.

I didn't try to make it a certain way because I actually hadn't really

listened to very many podcasts so instead of

trying to be a great podcast, I tried to

just be a great show that I would want to listen

to myself, and I just took it from there.

So perhaps if I had been a big podcast

listener, I would have been more intimidated. But

because I just dove into this other

world, I felt okay. And

by the way, I didn't tell anybody I was doing it.

So I waited a long time

until things started getting better and

all that before I started screaming it from the

rooftops.

>> Jeniffer: That is awesome. You know what? I'm still nervous. I

was, like, super nervous all day today. When I'm doing an

interview, I'm like, oh, my God, I'm interviewing Zibi. I want it to be great. Did

I do enough research? So I'm still there and I still

sweat, and I'm, like, in a room and you're not even

here.

>> Zibby Owens: Oh, my gosh. Well, I do not ever have to be nervous

talking to me. I am like, this should be your

easiest interview ever. seriously.

>> Jeniffer: But I think there's something to that, too. Before you walk

on a stage, if you're not nervous, I don't know, I think you

almost need that to, like. It's almost

like the adrenaline that sort of drives the

work in a way.

>> Zibby Owens: I have found that the more practice I get, the

less that response. That physical response

happens at the beginning, it would happen all the time. And by the

beginning, I mean, like the first couple hundred episodes,

right? Not just like the first two minutes. Yeah, because now I've

done 1800 episodes or something like that. And it used

to be anytime I walked on stage, I really was

just heart pounding and all of it. And I

seem to have extinguished that response. Almost like

I'm a lab experiment or

something. Right. If you get enough

exposure to it, then it stops being something new and

you start feeling comfortable. So now I can walk on

a stage, and I still sometimes do get that flutter.

But as soon as I'm up there, I'm generally okay.

Before, I was not.

>> Jeniffer: And you're doing it pretty consistently, so

that makes sense. I mean, if you were doing a daily

podcast, I don't think you can maintain that

nervousness, still go about your day. Right?

Like, you have to get past that. Sure,

let's.

Okay, let's transition. I really want to talk about your

latest book, blank, which I'm holding in my hands. Friends. It's

a fantastic cover. it's a great book.

Zibi, where did the idea for this book come from?

>> Zibby Owens: Well, it actually happened similarly to

what happened in blank? Which is, I was at dinner

with my family, and my son suggested that I

hand in my next book blank. I had been given

the opportunity by my editor to pitch her different

novels as my bookends. My

memoir was about to come out, and the whole time

I was writing bookends, I kept sending my editor

all these ideas for novels like lovers leap, about

the competitive backgammon industry, and just, like, all

these random ideas. And she was always like, no, let's

keep thinking. But she was encouraging and said

she really wanted to work with me on my first

novel and all that. So

the clock was ticking, because she wanted me. She

really wanted to acquire the next book before bookends came out,

so I could use any media to discuss the next

book as well. And I couldn't think of one that she

really liked. And I was lamenting this at

dinner, and it was my son who said, if you're just staring at the

blank screen, hand it in blank. And I thought, oh, my gosh, that is such a good

idea. I'll write a novel about a woman who hands her

novel in blank. And then what would happen then? And then

the wheels were, you know, it was off and running.

>> Jeniffer: That is awesome.

You know? And I gotta tell people, the book is also very real,

which I would expect nothing less from you, zibby, but it's,

like, super, relatable. It's a fun read, and it

hearkens to what it's like to raise kids today, you know, keeping up

with what's hip and cool and what it's like

to be successful, but still gripped by self

doubt to navigate pre menopause and hot

flashes. And I have to tell you, there's this moment in

the book where I'm reading it, and I felt like I. I felt like

I completely, like, fell into the book

when our protagonist, Pippa, who we're

going to meet, more of, admits that she stockpiles

chocolate covered almonds because they're so hard to find.

And I was like, oh, my God. Yes. I searched them out everywhere.

Like, and, not to get off topic, but do you think this

is, like, some sort of evil plan on the part of Starbucks? Like, they

create this great product, and then they just make them really hard to

find?

>> Zibby Owens: Well, actually, they have discontinued the chocolate

covered almonds.

>> Jeniffer: No, they have not. Oh, my God.

>> Zibby Owens: Yeah. Ah, they've replaced them with something

probably healthier. But they used to have these. They were

called salted almond bites, so, ah,

perhaps they weren't even real almonds in there. I don't know what they were, but

they were so good.

>> Jeniffer: Delicious.

>> Zibby Owens: And now they have those lightly dusted ones that are terrible, which

are lovely, but they get all over your hands, and so you can't

really eat them while you're driving and all of that.

>> Jeniffer: I ate them on planes. I would go to the Starbucks

in any airport, the first thing I would do, and I would buy all of them.

If they had, like, five packets, I would buy all five.

>> Zibby Owens: Yeah. There weren't that many in a packet.

>> Jeniffer: And normally they would. Exactly. But, you know, they would last. But

normally there'd be, like, one bag of the almonds, and, like,

there was another thing they had that just wasn't as good. But anyway, I

just.

>> Zibby Owens: So, basically, the reason I couldn't find

almonds is because you have been taking them all.

>> Jeniffer: You took them all. It was all me.

>> Zibby Owens: Unreal. Unreal.

>> Jeniffer: The secret salt, folks.

>> Zibby Owens: Mystery solved.

>> Jeniffer: So, speaking of Pippa, let's, talk about her. She

must have been so much fun to write.

>> Zibby Owens: She was so much fun to write. And I'm trying to

write my next book now, and I'm

really longing to write more about Pippa.

and my editor didn't really want me to do that because I guess

sequels are harder to sell or whatever.

But, yeah, that was so easy for me

and so fun because Pippa and I share

some things, so it wasn't too much of a

stretch of the imagination to write her voice.

but, yeah, I had a lot of fun writing, writing

her. And, there was a

time when I was writing where I felt like just giving

up. In fact, I even talked to my agent. I was like, look, I have too much to do.

I just can't get this done. I don't even think it's good. I just can't do

it. And I thought about just

literally not doing it and being like, thank you so much, but I can't

get this done.

>> Jeniffer: For blank, you mean. You're talking about blank? Yeah.

>> Zibby Owens: No, for blank. I had written, like, just the beginning, and.

And then it was thanksgiving, and I was telling

my family, an extended family, over thanksgiving, that I was thinking about

abandoning this project. And they were like, what? Why would you do that? Well,

what's it about? Let's just see. So I started

describing it and all the things that I had coming,

and then I was like, actually, this sounds kind of good.

So I made the decision right then that

if I was going to spend the time the next couple months trying to

finish the book, it had to be fun. Like, I had to

laugh. I had to enjoy it, because why on earth was I doing

this?

>> Jeniffer: Right?

>> Zibby Owens: So that's how I did it, and that's what made it fun.

>> Jeniffer: Tell me about your writing practice.

>> Zibby Owens: Oh, gosh. that is a generous word for what I

do. I would not call it a

practice.

I, don't really have a writing practice because I

fit writing in around everything else that I do.

I feel like I should discuss my email practice, what I do, or.

>> Jeniffer: Like, your email practice is really, really impressive.

You always get right back to me. I'm like, how does she do that?

>> Zibby Owens: I'm, like, poised over my

keyboard, ten fingers kind of

curled. Like I'm. It's like a volley

uncle animal. You know? Like pouncing

on every email I try. You know, the best days are.

I'm like, I have nothing to do. I can just stay on top of my

emails. no, but

the writing has to fit. I just

have to fit it in. There's too much else going on. So

my ideal world is I wake up and

I can stay in my pajamas, and I can lay on the couch, and

I can write. And I don't have a deadline. I don't have to be

anywhere in the afternoon. My kids are with my ex husband.

I'm in someplace pretty. I'm feeling

inspired. But, you know, all those things don't happen very

often, so that is my wish list of

writing circumstances.

>> Jeniffer: So many of our listeners are writers or, you know,

aspiring writers, writers and readers, of course.

But I think I feel like that gives people

hope. Like, you can do it. It doesn't matter how busy you are, you have to believe in it.

You just have to, as they say, button chair and make it

happen.

>> Zibby Owens: Yeah. Or just don't even get near the

chair.

>> Jeniffer: That's great advice.

>> Zibby Owens: That's one of the things is for me, my

desk and chair and all that, that is work for

me.

>> Jeniffer: Right?

>> Zibby Owens: Like, I'm here, I'm emailing, I'm podcasting. I mean, it's fun.

I love what I do so much, but it's still one

mentality. So when I go to write creatively,

I have to not be at a desk.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah. You know, my husband's always telling me that you

should write somewhere else, because I do at the end of the day, and I'm

so tired from just, you know, mentally exhausted

from working all day. But I really want to write, and it's

hard. So I used to, like, go to a coffee

shop or somewhere else, so it didn't feel like work to write, but

now it's hard to get me to leave my house.

>> Zibby Owens: It's always hard to get me to leave my house.

>> Jeniffer: Right?

>> Zibby Owens: Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: So. Okay, so we love Pippa. There was

one scene where she

actually, I have so many questions I want to

ask you, but. Okay, so there's one scene where she

discovers that her idea may have been

taken by someone else, or someone else had a similar

idea, and she, on the keyboard,

chooses control a for

highlighting all of the copy, and then she hits delete, and my heart

just about, like, fell through the floor.

Oh, my God. I'm like, have you. Do you delete

stuff you've written?

>> Zibby Owens: No, I try not to. Well,

now I have a shadow document where I put

that I call deleted stuff, and I just put everything deleted in there just

in case.

>> Jeniffer: Just in case. Yeah. You never know. You might want to go back. There's some idea in

there. that's really important.

>> Zibby Owens: if there's a sentence I will spend,

I'm like, wait, I think I wrote something about that in one of my deleted

files. And then I went, like, an hour trying to find the sentence

that I could have easily just rewritten.

>> Jeniffer: Okay, that is so true. And, you know what I find

really crazy is sometimes I'll go ahead and write it,

and then I'll go back and find the other thing, because I'm sure it was so

much better the first time I wrote it. And they're exactly the same.

>> Zibby Owens: Yeah, yeah. I'm like,

what does it say that whatever I wrote last time is always

better than this time? Am I constantly declining?

>> Jeniffer: We m just self doubt. We have this self doubt, and Pippa has

it, too. And it's so endearing for anyone who has

aspired to be an author and write a book. I mean, this

is just such a great read. and it gives

hope. Yeah. And it's a very. It's such a

fun read. I know that you were going

to write a book. I hope I don't get this wrong.

40 love. How much

of that is in this novel? Because that was

going to be a memoir, right?

>> Zibby Owens: Yes. Actually, none of that is in this novel.

>> Jeniffer: Okay.

>> Zibby Owens: That is another project I wrote

several times over in all different formats. One is

a prose poem. One is a

first person present tense,

more dramatic. One is a memoir.

Some of 40 love ended up in bookends.

M. because some of it was really just

about my life. but I still think it would be fun to go

back and write a fictitious 40 love, but

I think so, too.

>> Jeniffer: I see something. I see something in your future,

Zibbie Owens. But that book

was. I mean, I read something that. That was, like,

primarily based on, you know, your

past marriage and, you know, finding the love of your life.

And it just feels like there's a little of that in blank.

>> Zibby Owens: in 40 love and in

blank. Well, I try

not to write too much about. I definitely don't

write about my former marriage, personally,

because I have four kids. And

look, I was married and now I'm not. So you can connect the dots.

It probably wasn't perfect, right. Or I'd still be

married. But I don't think we. I don't feel like I

need to go into it with the reader, necessarily. I

think that the reader is smart enough to just get it and move

on. it was really fun, though, to have blank

just make up. Like, well, what is, like, the worst

guy? Like, what would I want to happen the least

with a guy ever? Like, what would be

so bad? And so I tried to make that

up.

>> Jeniffer: And, you know what's so cool about Pippa and you

is that she never throws him under the bus. Like, she

still tries to have, like, a kind,

generous, outlook when she's talking

to her children about their dad, because that's

important. Right.

>> Zibby Owens: You know, my parents were divorced. I don't know. Are your

parents divorced or anything? I don't know.

>> Jeniffer: They did divorce. Yes.

>> Zibby Owens: Yeah. So I had an

experience where they did speak about

each other.

>> Zibby Owens: And I thought that even though

I knew why they were doing it, it

actually backfired on them.

>> Zibby Owens: In my mind. So I vowed not to do

that myself.

>> Jeniffer: Well, I commend that. I think it's so important that

we. I don't know. We have to. That's being selfish. Right.

We have to think about the children and how they feel and.

>> Zibby Owens: Well, it's also selfish as well, because,

I really think it hurts whoever's badmouthing someone

else. I really look bad.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah.

>> Zibby Owens: Because people will defend their parents

despite any flaws at all times, because we love

them. We just love our parents generally. So

if. Even if I have an issue with one of them, if somebody else

speaks badly about a parent, I'm, the first to defend

them. So I just think it's not worth

it. Not to say I'm, such an angel, but

I always remember how much that truly

backfired.

>> Jeniffer: Well, this is a life lesson. Don't go around bad mouthing people

because you're going to be the one who looks bad. Right. This is

just a life lesson, folks.

>> Zibby Owens: Yeah, life lesson. Particularly related to your child's other

parent.

>> Jeniffer: I want to talk about the Zivi Easter eggs in this book, and there's

probably way more that I don't know about, but it was so

fun when

in the very beginning in the book, she picks up her moms don't

have time to read books podcast mug. And I kind of chuckled to

myself. And then there's a point where she's driving past, oh, that cute

little bookstore on 11th in Montana. And I laughed

at that. And then again at the end, there's a

tagline. Your signature. I think it's your signature tagline. Stories

are best when shared. Is that

a zippy original or a pippa original?

>> Zibby Owens: A zippy original.

>> Jeniffer: Okay. I wasn't sure. I'm like, and by the way, I got

to admit, I have the hat, which I love.

>> Zibby Owens: Oh, yay.

>> Jeniffer: And I've been to that cute little bookstore on 11th

in Montana. I think I have the address. Right? I went from memory.

>> Zibby Owens: You do? You do.

>> Jeniffer: So, did I miss any. Are there other Zibi Easter eggs in

here? should I just. Should I have not given them away to everyone

who's reading?

>> Zibby Owens: No, no, it's totally fine. It's totally fine.

I'm delighted you noticed.

I can't remember if there are others. Those were definitely

the biggest ones.

>> Jeniffer: That had to have been so much fun. I really got

that you had fun writing this book.

>> Zibby Owens: I know. I was like, is that allowed?

I just kept wondering, am I allowed to do that? And I just kept waiting for

somebody to take it out along the editing process, and no one did.

So I'm like, I guess I was allowed.

>> Jeniffer: You know what? you may have already read this book. The sentence by

Louise Erdrich.

>> Zibby Owens: I have not.

>> Jeniffer: Oh, my God. You have to read this book. So it is

so good. But Louise is a character in her

own book, so the protagonist

works at Louise's actual bookstore.

So she's, like, mentioned, like, my boss, Louise,

and, you know, we went, yeah, it was.

I enjoyed it so much because I love her as an author,

and I think it's so great that she owns a bookstore,

and, like, she never talks favorably or

unfavorably about herself, necessarily. She just

appears as, like, a side character. And I

had never seen anyone else do that until I read blank.

>> Zibby Owens: Well, in my next book, I even have

this scene, which I'll probably delete,

but not for real. Delete. I mean, put in the deleted

file delete. but I do have a scene. that's over.

911. as a backstory type

scene. And I actually have my

main character meet me. But I don't

say that it's me, but it was me, at the time, like

what I was doing. So I just described

myself. I don't know, I'll probably take it out.

>> Jeniffer: You wrote that for you, it might

appear. I think that's kind of cool. I think we're going to see a little bit more

of that.

>> Zibby Owens: Yeah, we'll see.

>> Jeniffer: Okay, I have a hardball question for you. As hardball

as we get on the premise. so blank is a book about

changing the publishing industry. but blank

is also published by Amazon or an Amazon imprint.

So boutique bookstores hate Amazon. And

yet you have a boutique book shop and a book published

by Amazon. So have you gotten any pushback on this

and, you know, talk to us about

just this whole fact of the matter.

>> Zibby Owens: Yes, I have gotten pushback. a lot of independent

bookstores will not take my book or any books

written by Amazon published authors.

I have managed to get it into quite a few

because

of my publishing company and

personal relationships that I've built up over the last couple of years

or begging or whatever. but there are a bunch

that won't take it no matter what. I

think that is foolish on

the part of the indies. I think, obviously

I understand that they're upset with Amazon for

ruining their livelihood. I get it. I totally

understand that. But for indies

to stay afloat,

boycotting authors is not the way

to go. I mean, I don't believe in any sort

of book banning. you know, I think

that the people who

suffer, if anyone is the author

and even possibly the bookseller for the loss of

sales, Amazon does not suffer at all.

So the point they're making doesn't

really land. Right? It's like kicking

the shins of a giant, right? Giants m aren't going to know,

but you're probably going to break your own toes. So

I, I understand the tense

relationship. I do understand. But

I think you have to pick yourself up and

find a new strategy and market

forces are always throwing new competitors in the

midst. Right? That is one of the things like, look at

Kodak and how they thought they were. Nothing was ever

going to happen to Kodak. I worked on the Kodak account, at my first

advertising job and, oh my gosh, the city of Rochester

and this big, who could ever take

them down? And then you know what, like digital cameras

are, they like, you have to

adapt you just have to adapt. So

I think that's not a strategy I believe in. We

carry all sorts of books at our bookstore. I, think

that readers don't care who publishes the book necessarily.

this, you know, this is the, or

notice, or notice. I really don't.

And

look, I believe in getting books to

readers, and a

lot of people use Amazon, and that's not going to

change. I also believe in supporting independent bookstores, and

I support them a lot. And I support Bing, and

I support all sorts of, places I started my own.

I mean, I'm a huge fan of the independent bookstore,

and I think they have a long and healthy life in

front of them. But, you know,

I get.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah.

well, and what's interesting, too, about blank is that

it's commentary on the traditional

publishing model and how it's kind of brought, you

know, I mean, you pretty much say it flat out.

Can you talk to us a little bit more about that, if

it's okay? I don't want to spoil the book, obviously.

>> Zibby Owens: No, no, this is not book spoiling. This is actually just real life.

And, one of the things I was trying to do with blank

is to pull back the curtains a bit on the

publishing industry in general, because I entered it

as a sort of bright eyed, bushy tailed, as we

all do. You know, I didn't know a lot of these

things. Some things I was sort of

aghast to learn about, and some

things I was like, everybody needs to know this. People don't

know this. so some of those things I put in the

book, I think that people don't

necessarily know that whatever book the

publisher picks to be the biggest book is going to be the biggest book.

So if you're not the lead title, good

luck. Right. You need some major celebrity to pick

it up on a plane or something random to happen,

to possibly compete with the ones that either have been

picked by a giant book club or that your publisher has decided

to invest the most heavily in. And it goes

all the way through all the distribution channels down

to who you sell the hardest at

the sales meeting and then the sales rep with the books in

the back of the car and the influence the sales rep has. I mean, it's a

whole ecosystem, and a lot of it is relationship

based, and it's a very creaky old system.

but this is the one that sort of

monopolizes the bookstores and all of that as

well. yeah, m. Yeah, I think it doesn't help with

discoverability of books and

I'm over here, sort of the

cheerleader for all authors and really wanting people

who do great work to get their work seen

and into the hands of readers who might benefit the most from

the books. And. And sometimes

that happens, but a lot of times it doesn't. A lot of great things are missed.

I realize this happens in many industries, movies

that people don't end up seeing, songs that don't end up getting

heard. It's a byproduct of a creative

field. But I just wanted to see if

maybe I could do some tweaks to see if I

could help with that.

>> Jeniffer: Well, and, I think you're absolutely right. I think

people need to know, like, pulling back the curtain that that

is paid shelf space. And

bestsellers are not necessarily determined

by readers. And you go into that

in the book, and I want to transition

this into your publishing imprint because

you have a model that's a little different than the traditional book model. Can

you tell us more about that?

>> Zibby Owens: Yeah, I mean, it's

funny, I just emailed all of our authors last night

because I was having this, I don't know, just moment of

nostalgia. Looking back through all these pictures of our authors

all hysterically laughing and thinking about the

last year and a half of publishing and all this

crazy journey that has gone into starting this

company and the heart and soul

of why I did it. And the main reason is really to give

authors as great an experience as possible. You can't

always control market forces. M but you can

set your authors up for as much success as

possible. If they don't hit, it's not because

of a lack of trying on behalf of the publisher.

>> Jeniffer: That's unique. I mean, most authors don't realize

that when you get a traditional publishing deal, and I'm sorry I interrupted you,

but no, it's fine. Most traditional publishers are not going to put

a lot of marketing, if any, it's still expected

for the author to market the book.

>> Zibby Owens: Yeah. And I will say, the more the

author does, the more it helps our efforts. But that's

not required. Do you know, like, if m you

have two people in a canoe and one person's

paddling versus both people paddling,

right. You're going to go faster with the two people paddling. I think it's

just common sense. So, I don't think it

means that the person rowing the boat is a bad rower. Right.

It's just, there's like, somebody else could help and you could go

faster. So I always think there's

that. but yeah, some

publishers. And I don't think this is to the

detriment of anybody working in publishing. This is not a

personal thing at all, but just structurally, if there's

so many books to market and limited

time, you try to. Publishers try to take their

bets and put all their money

on red or whatever. It's a

crafts table. So

I just don't think that makes people feel good. And

I think that I want the, I mean, I

know I want our authors to feel good.

I want them to feel supported. I want them to know we're investing in

them emotionally, financially. I want them

to have a great experience. I want them to have input on their

titles and their covers and the interior

layouts and the fonts like it's their baby.

And I want them to feel that they

have control and take ownership. And one of the

things we do, aside from really giving the

authors a say, is connecting all the

authors together. And we have WhatsApp groups, and we

have team retreats and groups

touring and all sorts of ways where our authors

have become friends and allies and share

knowledge and help each other, because why not

do that? You know, I think a lot of publishers keep their authors

separated, and I'm like, why? You know, are they

afraid? Like, what? Why not have

them be, together? So, it's

so simple, but it's more philosophical, I

guess. you know, we just believe

in gathering and connecting and all

of that. And, you know, from a tactical standpoint,

we do a lot more brand partnerships. We have

distribution now in a lot of hotels, and we're doing

sort of more creative things to try to get books

where they're not competing against 8 million other

books, but perhaps the only book somewhere, which

helps set them up for success. we do tons of

extra content for every book and trailers and this and that,

and, you know, lots of communication

and, you know, it's supposed to

be fun.

>> Jeniffer: You know, it really is. Yeah.

>> Zibby Owens: Nobody goes into writing because they're like, oh, this is a

sure thing. This is

totally a, stable way to make

money for the rest of my life. I'll be fine. That's not why

people go into writing. They go into writing because they have to. They,

need to write. It's in their heart and soul,

and they're often really good at it. People who

feel that calling usually have some

talent and drive and

passion and also

are totally anxious and insecure. So,

speaking as one myself,

the most we can help, the better. The more we can help, the better.

>> Jeniffer: Absolutely. You said something that I've found really interesting.

So I've been in the publishing industry for 20

years and I don't know if you knew this, but Chad and I have a company

and we help authors build brands and websites. And

so I've been speaking at self publishing

conferences since the early two thousands

and, you know, small, like independent book

publishers association, I've been speaking at their conference

for years. And what I've always found is that

there's so much camaraderie and community

in these smaller presses, indie

publishers, self publishers, hybrid

presses, whereas the traditional

publishing model is everyone keeps to themselves, it's all, it's

competitive. And I think that's something that,

you know, the model has created. And you said, like, why,

why is that? Why can't we all work together? And you're. I think it's

changing and I hope it's

changing, through conversations like this, I think it's helping,

but it's an interesting, it's an interesting thing you touched on there.

>> Zibby Owens: Yeah, I mean, that's great that you do that with the self

publishing.

>> Zibby Owens: You know, I think self publishing is also really

interesting. And I

think that if I could have one

thing to say about the branding of self published

authors is that they should invest more in their

cover design. I think that's the main differentiator,

100%. Like, if they could just get better covers.

>> Jeniffer: It's so frustrating.

>> Zibby Owens: Preaching to the choir here.

>> Jeniffer: Well, you know, we started out with designing book covers

and websites and we still do that, by the

way. We still design book covers. And people

always ask me, you know, what's the number one thing that gets in the way? And I

say the authors, because the authors have a vision and their book is their

baby, as you mentioned. And so they have these

ideas of what it needs to look like. But

separating yourself from that and letting the publisher

design a good book cover, I think, is the most important thing you

can do to make your book successful. And

it's so hard for them to do. And, you know, we're book

designers. And people say, you know, what have you designed lately

that you're really proud of? And I have a hard time pointing to

anything, you know, because

we're dealing with, the heart and emotions

of someone who has this idea that they understand in

their heart, but the public doesn't see it and it's really

hard.

>> Zibby Owens: Maybe you could get like a group of 100 people

to volunteer as like, you know, cover testers

and run the covers by the

testers and get some independent feedback. To show the

author, look, you know, out of these 100 people, 90. nine

liked mine and three liked yours.

I'm serious, though. I mean, that's what happens.

>> Jeniffer: No, you're right.

>> Zibby Owens: We show the covers at sales conference, and sometimes

they're like, oh, we all think that will sell more.

So I think people. Yes, they

want things to look a certain way, but they also want their books to

sell well.

>> Jeniffer: And they always come back and say, I wish I'd listened to you.

Almost always, you know, I wish I'd listened to you. Because the

number one thing that's been holding me back, and bookstores are like, you

know, no, I'm not interested. Why? Well, the coverage, you

know, you know, looking at comparable

titles, does it look like other books on the shelf next to it? The

ones that are like it? Right. Is this what. Does it meet

audience expectations? as opposed

to. Is it what I like? I had an author the other

day say, well, I really want papyrus. And I'm like,

absolutely not. We can't use papyrus. And then

there's a reason for that. A. It's hard to read, and. But anyway, we're

totally getting off track.

I loved the COVID for Patty Lynn's book, end

credits. And, in fact,

nice work. I got to interview Patti at, our

last festival, the San Diego Writers Festival, and she's

delightful.

>> Zibby Owens: Oh, yay.

>> Jeniffer: So, nice work. Great book. How do

you, you know, find your authors? How do you

choose which book to publish next?

>> Zibby Owens: Patti's book came in through an agent,

and. And I remember really loving

it. So that's how that worked. we get a lot of

agented submissions, and,

some of the books we're publishing have been authors who have

previously been on my podcast. Moms don't have time

to read books, and so I knew them and was familiar with

their work. I mean, m that's mostly

how, at the beginning, I was telling people, like, oh, my gosh,

you should write a book. And that does not

work. If someone has not

decided to start writing a book on their own, you telling

them to write one is a bad call.

There are so many people who already have books, so,

you know, barking at the wrong tree there. so I learned

that lesson, but now it's

mostly agented submissions. I'm trying to think if

there's another way. It's mostly through that

or recommendation.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah.

>> Zibby Owens: What's that?

>> Jeniffer: Do you accept unsolicited manuscripts?

>> Zibby Owens: We do. In fact, we just had a meeting today with

an unsolicited manuscript person. who I met

at an event, and that was really

good. So, yeah, we do.

>> Jeniffer: That's hard, because pretty soon you're going to be so inundated.

It's like, how do you find the best book

for your.

>> Zibby Owens: We are inundated. We are inundated, but we're also very

selective. We only do one a

month, and we only do contemporary fiction and

memoir. That's pretty realistic. We don't do

Sci-Fi fantasy. we've done

one true psychological

suspense. We have a couple of those

memoirs, books that make you think and feel.

So it's pretty easy to weed out

the many submissions that don't meet those criteria, even though

we say it everywhere.

>> Jeniffer: Right.

>> Zibby Owens: and isn't that crazy?

>> Jeniffer: Well, there go all my proposals.

Next time, Chad. We can work on it.

You're right, though. People don't pay attention to. They're just

excited about you as a publisher, and they don't think to look at the submission

guidelines.

>> Zibby Owens: Yeah, somebody was trying to convince me to publish

children's books. They're like, no, no, but this would be

really good. And I'm like, right. We don't actually do

that. Or, like, a coffee table book. And I'm like,

we don't even have a printer for that. Like, that's

not my business. so I think the

more appropriate your pitch is for any

publisher, the better. And the publishers are not going to

change based on your book. You have to sort

of get with the program, or find a different publisher.

>> Jeniffer: Who is your distributor, if you don't mind me asking?

>> Zibby Owens: Oh, I don't mind. Ingram. Two rivers.

Ingram.

>> Jeniffer: Oh, yeah, of course. Awesome.

was it daunting, starting your own publishing in

print?

>> Zibby Owens: Yes,

it was daunting. And

I still did not even

know how much I had to do at the beginning. I mean, if I

had known, I would have been more daunted. Let me put it that way.

>> Jeniffer: It's probably better not to know, right?

>> Zibby Owens: Yeah, better not to know. It's a lot. It's hard. It's a lot of

work. but I feel like we're in a really good place right

now.

>> Jeniffer: How many years have you been publishing books?

>> Zibby Owens: Our first book just came out last February in

2023.

>> Jeniffer: Oh, okay.

>> Zibby Owens: so we've had about 15. We've had 15 books come out.

>> Jeniffer: Congratulations.

>> Zibby Owens: We started it with Lee Newman, who had started

another press before, so I felt like she

knew how to get things going. and we partnered

early on with a woman named Ann Massetti, who's now our president. Ah.

Of Civi media and publisher of Civvie books, who's

amazing. so my

strategy all along is to be surrounded by really

smart people and to ask lots

of questions and defer to people who know what they're

doing when I don't or, you know,

all that. but it's. Yeah, it

has been hard. It has been hard, and it is still

hard because it is so hard to sell books. I mean,

there are just too many books and not enough

time and readers and demand

and, especially because

people enjoy reading the same things.

So it makes it harder

for any book to get a big following.

Yeah, it's hard. It's just really hard. But

that's why I really like to think of each

book sale, each book read as a huge

deal and not to get as caught up with the

numbers. Right? Oh, I sold 112 books this

week. Like, oh, that's it. You know, look, so and so sold a

million copies. Well, you know what 112

people think about that? That's like bigger than my high school

graduating class. 100 people. How many people are.

It's like a whole airplane is reading the book right now. I mean, it's

cool. So I think if you think of the numbers,

that's a great analogy. Think about it in a

different way. Like, oh, I feel bad. Only a

thousand people bought my book. A thousand people. Like,

think about that auditorium. You know, they're all sitting there

for 8 hours reading your book. That's pretty

miraculous.

>> Jeniffer: Do book clubs play a huge role or a

big role in how you get books out to readers? I know you have a

book club, right?

>> Zibby Owens: I do have a book club.

>> Jeniffer: Yay.

>> Zibby Owens: the big book clubs obviously move the needle more than really

anything else. ever since Oprah, the

model is still incredibly powerful. I also

think micro book clubs are very powerful,

too. what you really want is word of

mouth. And the other night, I

joined a zoom at a book club with eight women who were sitting around

their living room in Scottsdale, Arizona. And I'm like,

why not? You know, like, I love that.

>> Jeniffer: So they invited you?

>> Zibby Owens: Yeah. Well, I offered. I said, if anybody, if any book clubs are reading

blank, I'm happy to send you some friendship bracelets

and join on Zoom, or in person if I can. And

some people took me up on that, and I was like, great, here I am.

I'll stay up late for this. because how great

book clubs talk about it. They spread the word, then they tell friends,

that's really how books, despite all the other

things and TikTok and blah, blah, blah. I

mean, word of mouth is the most powerful.

I mean, I'm not saying the living room in Scottsdale is more powerful

than hitting it big on book talk. I'm not saying

that, but I think there's room for

everything.

>> Jeniffer: Well, I think that's one of the things that makes you so

endearing is that you make yourself so accessible

to readers. you answer your emails

like, you personally get back to people and you have time for people.

And I think it really shows.

>> Zibby Owens: Yeah. Someone's like, why do you do that?

>> Jeniffer: Are you insane? Yeah, I know.

>> Zibby Owens: And I'm like, I mean, I don't sleep that much, I have to

say. But, I mean, someone's gonna answer

my emails, like, what the heck?

>> Jeniffer: Yeah.

>> Zibby Owens: I don't know. I don't know how. I'm, maybe I'm just too

controlling or something or neurotic or

anxious.

>> Jeniffer: It's working. Yeah.

>> Zibby Owens: I don't know. Yeah, it's working.

>> Jeniffer: You know, there's an author, you may have heard of her, Lisa

C. She writes amazing books. And

that's really part of her brand

is. And she was actually, the reason that I went

into author branding is, you know, looking

at how she engages with her readers. She answers her

emails. She always shows up for book clubs.

She's so generous with her time and,

like, genuinely happy

that this one reader is interested in her book

and cares about her book. And I think that's part of her

brand. That's why people keep reading every book

she puts out. Plus, she's a damn good writer. So, I

mean, yes, of course. But, yeah,

I think that if we can give more to the people who are,

you know, like you said, a whole, I love that

there's a whole plane reading your book

and thanking them.

>> Zibby Owens: You know, that's, I think, author branding too.

I mean, you are your brand 100%. So,

yeah, if you meet someone,

like, you're the best representative for your work, so

you have to be nice. Like, you know,

everyone, anyone who has the wrong idea, I mean,

maybe I should back up. If you're not nice, then just delete

all this advice.

>> Jeniffer: But, you know, and that's your brand too. Okay,

great.

>> Zibby Owens: If you are a nice person and want to make sure people know that,

that, like, you can't be in a bad mood one day

and be really rude to someone. Like, it doesn't take much

to destroy someone's impression. And

then, do you know what I mean? Like,

you have to, you have to protect your

own brand at all

costs. Not to be fake, but just, like, if

you're having a bad day, just, like, suck it up for a minute and

smile at someone who wants to talk about your book. I mean, that's a

gift. Every reader is a gift. So, Or

don't leave the house.

>> Jeniffer: House. You know, that's my model.

Yeah, that's what I did.

>> Zibby Owens: Back to where we started, not leaving the house.

>> Jeniffer: That's a good callback there.

What's next for Zivi Owens?

>> Zibby Owens: Oh, man. well, I'm about to go do a live

podcast at my bookstore and,

moderate an event. I'm continuing on with

this crazy zibi verse tour that I've been on, where I've been going

to, like, 50 different places in the the United States

to meet people, and talk about

my book. So this weekend is, I went to

Dallas and Denver and Chicago, and I have a

bunch more trips coming up, but I'm getting towards the end

of the tour, so that's great. but I'm going to

continue doing that and more events over the

summer. we have two books coming out from Zibi, books that I've

been busy promoting and emailing all about.

>> Jeniffer: Tell us what they are. Yeah.

>> Zibby Owens: One is called I want you more by Swan Huntley.

>> Jeniffer: I love her, by the way. She's one of my. I interviewed her

on the premise. She's one of my favorite authors.

>> Zibby Owens: Oh, good. She's so funny.

>> Jeniffer: She's so great.

>> Zibby Owens: She's such a great voice. so this book is about

a ghostwriter who goes to East

Hampton for the summer and moves in with her

client, who is a celebrity chef. And

their relationship ends up taking a turn

in a lot of different ways.

And, there's sort of a single white female element to it.

Meets war of the roses, and

cancel culture and

love and lust. It's really good.

I'm sort of obsessed with this book. And

then we also. That's our sort of May June book.

And then in July, we have Pierce

oysters by Jocelyn Takax. And

that is literary eco fiction about

a family of oyster farmers affected by the BP oil

spill man, and the ripple of that in their community.

So those are both really, really good books. So I'm very

busy, with those marketing plans and tours

and publicity and all of that.

we have a retreat coming, up in

September in Palm Springs, for two nights, and I'm busy

planning our November 1, which we're debating between a couple

places. my book club

is reading, well, we're

reading Julia Alvarez's the Cemetery of Lost stories,

but we will be reading Annabelle Moynihan's, Summer

Romance and Anne Leary's, I've tried being

nice, which are both fabulous, trying to go

through. We have to be classes for aspiring authors, so

definitely check those out as well. My podcast

has some great guests coming up. We're doing five episodes all

summer long with so many great

authors, all different types of books. I just

assembled this giant summer reading list with all

these fun categories, many of which are going to be in my

bookstore in Santa Monica. and I'm going to sort

of unveil that next week. And,

I'm working on my own

novel again, theoretically,

by which I mean I'm spending a lot of time on instagram,

but it's supposed to be due at the end of July. And,

I don't know, it's just, like, not happening. I do have a 60 page outline,

so it shouldn't be that hard. I just have to write it to

know what's gonna happen, but it's still really hard to

do. and that book is called

overheard, and it's about a bookstore owner

who meets, her ex husband's first new

serious girlfriend, who turns out to be a big deal movie

star. And when she complains about this to her good friend,

and while watching her son's football game, their

conversation gets picked up over the livestream for the football game

and broadcast to the whole community, and she gets

canceled. And the rest of the book is about how she gets

back into the good graces of the community with the help of her kids.

>> Jeniffer: Aw, that's not autobiographical, is it?

>> Zibby Owens: It is not. However, there was,

a football game that I did go to with my ex

husband and his fiance and my husband

and three of the kids, where we watched another kid play football.

And we did get picked up over the livestream, although

we didn't say anything bad, so it ended up not being that big a

deal. But as soon as it happened, I was like, oh, my God. What

did you say?

>> Jeniffer: Yeah, right, right.

>> Zibby Owens: What could I have said that would ruin my life? Like, is there

anything I could think of? And then I was like, I don't know, but I have to write a book about

this.

>> Jeniffer: I was at an author's conference, and right after,

the instructor went out into the hallway, and he was still

miked, and he started complaining about

the authors in the audience. No.

And I always think about that. I'm like, oh, my God, if you have nothing

nice to say, keep it to yourself, at least, at the very least till you

get home, right?

>> Zibby Owens: Yes.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Okay. You do

so much. It, like, literally is

wildly impressive and a little bit disturbing.

It's like you kept going, and then you said, and. And.

Well, so I just want to, like, ask you about your

childhood, like, when you were a little girl, like, eight years old. Can

you, like, bring us into the world of Zibby Owens? Like,

what. What was your empire like then?

>> Zibby Owens: I've always been interested in sort of entrepreneurial

pursuits.

>> Jeniffer: I had a feeling.

>> Zibby Owens: I've always been a huge reader, and a writer. So

at age eight, I was reading nonstop.

I was probably playing some snoopy tennis on my little

Casio whatever. I don't know how old you are, but that probably

dates me. This is before even game boys or anything.

So I did a little bit of that. but most days

I would sit, you know, I'm thinking of myself in the summer with,

like, a headband and maybe a

shorts and a little polo shirt. Like, reading.

Reading on my bed for, like, hours,

and, writing. And then

I made all these bookmarks, and we're selling them door to

door.

>> Jeniffer: That's what I was waiting for. I was like, I know it. There's, like, a

lemonade stand or a bookmark stand. Even better.

>> Zibby Owens: Yeah. I mean, I made bookmarks and sold them.

>> Jeniffer: What was your favorite book? Do you remember?

>> Zibby Owens: The book that made me really fall in love with

reading was Charlotte's web and how it was the first

book where I cried, and I didn't realize books could

really make you cry. And so that

was one of my favorites.

>> Jeniffer: In your acknowledgments, you give

credit, to, I'm gonna guess your grandparents,

Gadgi and papa. Did I say that right?

Yeah. Tell us a little bit how they, I

don't know how they helped to shape, you know, the future writer

Zibi.

>> Zibby Owens: Oh, that's sweet of you to ask. and by the way, you were

super prepared for this interview. You had nothing to worry about.

>> Jeniffer: Thank you very much.

>> Zibby Owens: Conversation I've had with anybody in the longest time.

Gagi was my mom's mom. We were

incredibly close. She was hilarious

and loved to write, although she called herself more of a

letter to the editor type because she was constantly writing letters to

the editor. but then would write me, like, five page letters

every week. Yeah,

she's like a Irma Baumbach. Just missed,

you know, she loved her. She could have been that.

but she really believed in my writing and was

every time I spoke to her. What are you writing? What are you

working on? I'm m like, oh, I'm not doing anything now.

Okay, well, you know, get back to writing.

Da da da. And then what are you reading? And that's how we

really connected. And, she

and my grandfather published this little miniature book of mine when I was

nine with my first two short stories.

And she's just always been. She was always

a huge supporter and believer. And,

I like to believe that she is, that she knows what's been going

on now because it all kind of happened very suddenly, and

most of it since she passed away in 2021.

>> Jeniffer: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to hear that.

Yeah, I can tell that she was a huge

supporter. and we need those people, don't we, as writers? Someone who

believes in us and kind of pushes us, even if they're not here

anymore. She's still pushing you, isn't she?

Well, Zippy, thank you so much for being a

champion for authors, for readers, for joining Chad and

I here today. This has been so much fun. Thank

you.

>> Zibby Owens: Thank you for having me, and thank you for all the time you

spent reading and the thoughtful questions and the deep

dive into my life, and I really appreciate it.

>> Jeniffer: No, it's my pleasure. Yeah, well, you just. You have a very

interesting life and such a beautiful, trajectory of what you're

doing. And I look forward to seeing more and reading

more books and having your authors on the

premise they need to be here.

>> Zibby Owens: Yes, thank you. That would be amazing.

>> Jeniffer: You can learn more about Zibby on Instagram,

ibboans, and on Substack, where she tells

it like it is. And I believe it.

This has been another episode of the premise. You can visit

us

online@thepremisepod.com

and subscribe and rate or review the premise

wherever you get your podcasts. And also,

moms don't have time to read books. Remember to review

these podcasts, folks, and subscribe. It really helps to get the

word out and increases our subscriber base. You

can also follow me, your host, on Instagram,

ennifergrace. And yesterday I put up my

very first TikTok video. My

handle is, ennifergracethompson.

And, that's it until next week. Thank you for

listening, and goodbye.

>> Zibby Owens: Goodbye.