The Premise

>> Jeniffer: Hello and welcome to the Premise M. I'm

Jennifer Thompson. I'm Chad Thompson. And we are here today

with the lovely and amazing Judy Reeves. She's

in studio, so we're super stoked. Welcome,

Judy.

>> Judy Reeves: Thank you. It's lovely to be here.

>> Jeniffer: I'm really excited about this interview. I absolutely

love this book when your heart says

go. And it's been on my bookshelf for a

while and I like to read books right

before the interviews, so they're super fresh. So I just

recently finished reading it and it's stuck with me.

It's such a beautiful, beautiful book.

But before we dive into this conversation about you as a writer

and everything you do in the community, I'm gonna tell our

listener a little bit about you. Our, listener. Just the one. The

one. Just the one.

>> Judy Reeves: That would be my mother.

>> Jeniffer: Well, and my mother too.

>> Judy Reeves: Okay. Okay.

>> Jeniffer: There we go. And Chad'mother well, we won't have

her. She said she's no longer with us, but she,

she is in memory. So we have listeners. We

do.

Judy Reeves is an. An award winning writer and

teacher whose books include when your heart says

go, a writer's book of days, named best

nonfiction by the San Diego Book Awards and a

hottest books for writers by Writers Digest.

Also writing alone, Writing together, the

writers retreat Kit and Wild Women,

Wild Voices. Her fiction, nonfiction and

poetry have appeared in many journals and

anthologies. She is a longtime teacher of

creative writing and has taught at

UC UCSD Extension and has

led community based writing practice groups for more

than 30 years. She teaches at writing conferences

internationally and at San Diego Writers Inc. A

nonprofit literary center which she co founded.

And she lives right here in San Diego amid, bulging book

bookshelves and an ancient Underwood Typri

that claims its own social media

fanbase, which I'm not surprised.

It's a gorgeous typewriter.

>> Judy Reeves: Yes. That was my husband's typewriter.

>> Jeniffer: Oh, was it?

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah. When he came, he came with his typewriter.

>> Jeniffer: And were you envious of it then? Did you think,

that'a that's a handsome typewriter?

>> Judy Reeves: I didn't appreciate it until later. I was into the

sleek stuff, you know, little, little, little guys like the one

you have here.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah.

And we're speaking of Tom.

>> Judy Reeves: Tom Reeves. Yeah. Tom I love. Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: Who this book is really, you know, a

lot about Tom as a love letter to Tom. And in

some ways I think this book is a love letter

to grief. I m. Think that sounds

really weird because no one loves grief or wants anything

to do with it, but it's the way you write

about it, it's so, so

openly. There's a sweetness to it. It

feels very hopeful, like a rebirth in

some ways, but not, you didn't

embrace grief per se, but you leaned into it. And I

really feel that when I'm reading this book. I. I guess

what I'm trying to ask is that even though you were running

from the sadness of the memories in San Diego, you

take this year long trip in this book, you're actually

running toward yourself or finding

yourself. Okay. So I wouldn't say this book is about

escape, but the opposite.

>> Judy Reeves: It's about searching, I would say, rather than escape.

Seeking is a word that I've always used about

myself. Always

seeking whatever it is that

will settle this unsettledness down.

Yeah, yeah.

>> Jeniffer: It's like you had this new layer of you that didn't exist before,

which is grief.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: And so you're trying to figure out who is Judy Reeves in

the world with this new layer. And it did feel

really beautiful. in so many ways is why it

constantly felt like a love letter to travel

to finding yourself, to Tom.

When did you know you had to write this book?

>> Judy Reeves: when I came back for all of

those years before I wrote it because it didn't get published till 30

years after the event. But I was writing

bits and pieces and memories and a little this and a little of

that and some very bad poetry,

and just, using it for fiction.

And I was in the middle of

a novel and the book just said, okay,

now, now is now'the time. And

I can't say all of the other time was

preparation for how I wanted to say it. And even when I

was writing it, I didn't know how, excuse me, how I wanted

to say it. I didn't know what its shape would be. I thought it

was a spiritual quest.

I thought it was, you know, searching for

home. I didn't know what it was and I

didn't know that Tom would be so much a part of

it, but he was just present all the

time.

>> Jeniffer: I felt like there was this interesting pacing

in the book of how much you share

with us, the reader about Tom.

And it picks up throughout the book like it starts a little

slower.

>> Jeniffer: Was that on purpose? Did that come to be

later? It really worked. It was incredibly

effective in terms of feeling the

grief and coming to terms with the

loss. So talk about that writing

process. And it maybe just happened naturally and you didn't have to change

a thing.

But I'm curious about the pacing.

>> Judy Reeves: That I'm gonna.

You know, when you're writing a book, you don't

necessarily know how it's going to come together. You

have an idea, you think, you think, you think. And things

show up and then they go. And then at some point,

you have to be able to step back from it

and look at it as a thing.

And so that's when. Not by myself

necessarily. I had a bunch of people reading this and

working with me to edit it. but it just felt

like the pace of when I had to

leave the trip, when I had to

leave the travel and come back, coincided with the

pace of his. The suddenness of his

death. Because even though he was

diagnosed only six months before he died, which

isn't very long at all,

he was still participating so fully in

life. and so his death

just seemed like that sudden. And so that was what. The

pacing happened, I think. Like, you know,

it's funny, I can't remember exactly now

when they were conscious choices and when it was

intuitive, knowing.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah, yeah. And I feel like that's a lot about

what writing is, is. You don't even realize it.

You said something, and I wish I'd written this down

so I could repeat it verbatim, but something along

the lines of, you know, part of the magic and the beauty of

writing is as you're doing. It's like, where is this coming

from? It's. It's this mystical thing that comes

from somewhere inside of you. But does it?

>> Judy Reeves: Well, you're a writer. You know these things too, right? You've

experienced them. It is magic. I don't

know. I believe in. I believe

in magic. I believe in the

muses. I believe that you can be influenced

by what you read. and I think

they'the trust that you have to

finally have in yourself.

I'm writing a novel now, and I'm thinking that novel

too much. So the writing isn't happening

like I'm used to, because I'm

thinking too much and. Oh, planning this and thinking about

that. M. But I like it so much

when you just open the notebook, pick up the

pen. The first words I wrote,

this was a memory. And it just started

coming like that.

>> Jeniffer: And there it was. Yeah, that's a great line.

>> Jeniffer: Nothing is scarier than the blank

page. Writing is risky. This was

pulled directly from this book and I wrote it down. I was like, oh, my God, that

is so true.

But I find that, like, that first line comes

pretty easily. So really the scary part is, like, the

third blank page

where Is this going right?

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah, yeah. But, a lot of people

in, you know, I do a lot of writing practice groups and

a lot of people will, will be reading their work

afterwards because we always invite them to read their work afterwards and they'll get

to a point and say, I don't know where that came from.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah.

>> Judy Reeves: And it's true. We don't know where it comes from.

>> Judy Reeves: And so to continue to, I call it,

surrender to the page every time.

>> Jeniffer: That's beautiful.

>> Judy Reeves: Just give yourself over and know

that you're not necessarily gonna be in charge. And the more you try

to be in charge, the more you hold

that intuitive, that

magic stuff, the more you hold that back. Or for me, that's

my experience anyway.

>> Jeniffer: Totally.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: Well, in having the courage to keep going, even though it's scary and

risky and all those things, it's maybe the hardest

part for me anyway.

>> Judy Reeves: It, you know, sometimes the hand starts and I can

tell because I can look at my handwriting and it starts getting

smaller and tighter. You know, when I get like to those

places and I notice that I'm not breathing.

>> Jeniffer: Oh, wow. Yeah.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah. So I have a physical kind of, reaction

to the. Where is this gonna go? I don't know.

I'm not in control anymore.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah.

>> Judy Reeves: Until you just say, okay, I'm not in control anymore.

>> Jeniffer: I just got shivers. Wait a minute, you're handwriting all

this. I know, right?

>> Judy Reeves: I think. Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: And then you go back and type it or do you have someone else type

it?

>> Judy Reeves: so for this book, I did 10

of those spiral bound, loose leaf notebooks,

you know, and as 199,000

words. Some of them

are good, not all them,

many of themus. The book is I think, 92,000

words. and then, so, yeah, so I

typ. So I handwrite it all and then I go through

and as I keyboard, as I key it in,

I edit or. I'm starting to use

dictation more, you know, with Word and also

Scrivener. I can use dictation on both of

those. And the dictation is

learning my way. And so

it's. Yeah, it's working. But

the thing is, is when I when I

do the dictation, when I speak, I don't write

as well.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah, I was just talking to our last

guest who we had on the premise about this

very thing. Often I'll go on walks

and I think, oh, the story is like

unfolding in my head and I want to capture it. So I chat's like, well,

why don't you just speak it into your phone? I was like, that's. It

does not work.

>> Jeniffer: It just all of a sudden I stumble and I question it and it doesn't

sound right. I listen to it. So I guess

it begs the question, is it really not that great in my head?

And I just think it is. Or is it

really just like a different muscle, you know,

dictating?

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah, it's. Some

people are so eloquent, you know, you've had so

many people and spoken to so many people and or they can

just get up and do that.

But I can't do that. I have

an editor that gets between that

and yes, I don't speak as well as I write for

writing.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, and we all have our

own process.

>> Judy Reeves: Right.

>> Jeniffer: And some people write by hand with a pen or a pencil.

>> Jeniffer: I can't write.

I have to do it on a typewriter. It just isn't the same

process for me. And I like short stories or,

you know, I'll read it again later. And I think it's because I'm

constantly rewriting the sentence.

>> Jeniffer: And I'm rewriting it and rewriting it, so by the time, you know, I look

at it, like it's polished. But when, when I'm writing with

a pen, it's like just nonsense. And I'm like, well, that

is terrible. What

in the world happened there? So, yeah, it's like, you know,

I think we get accustomed to, you know, our practice in

a way.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah. And I don't know if it's because I

started writing, writing stories and so

on when I was just with my big chief tablet and my.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah.

>> Judy Reeves: Remember those big thick pencils? Yeah.

Kind of flat. Yeah. And so I'm writing the stories

and maybe that's, you know, maybe it got into my

body at that time. And so it's like a muscle memory

that that's how you write.

>> Jeniffer: I think that's part of it. Yeah. Well, they say

that you learn better when you actually

write with your hand in a pen. And I do. When

I'm trying to learn something, if I write it down, I

remember it more effectively. For sure.

I want to hear about your first writing group. It's my understanding

that you were 11 years old.

>> Judy Reeves: Oh, that. Yes. That

story in my tree house.

In the backyard, in the tree house, there's

something, I don't know if. Does it happen to all kids

or girls at like 10, 11, 12

years old? You like to get scared of Things,

I don't know. You like to scare yourself, maybe to

convince yourself that you did not do that.

So I was heavy end of

vampires at

11 years old. And,

I don't know. I don't. I have no idea where that came

from, but. So there I was, writing that first Three buckets of

blood was the name of the name of the

story. Three buckets of.

>> Jeniffer: That is fantastic.

>> Judy Reeves: And I don't know, we lived in this old

farmhouse in this little town outside St. Joe, Missouri.

Then, there was a chicken house. And so the

vampires were somehow in the chicken house. Of course,

there were all the chickens. Of course. I don't know. I don't even

remember the story. But I do remember the

imagining of the vampires and the

chicken house.

>> Jeniffer: That is awesome. But you

also write that you and your sister would, like, get together with

your notebooks and then write and then read each

other their stories.

>> Judy Reeves: And my friend Betty Barnes. more than my sister. Yeah,

the three of us. Yeah. So my first book club or writing

group was with my friend Betty Barnes.

>> Jeniffer: So you've been facilitating writing groups since you were

11?

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah, was.

>> Jeniffer: So you're like, I

was absolutely meant to do this. You didn't really have a choice.

>> Judy Reeves: It doesn't seem there's something for me

about writing in groups.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah.

>> Judy Reeves: And, I wrote about this in the last,

lively muse that I sent out about the coffee shop

effect and the idea

that, if I go to be in a writing group, I

have set my intention, and if there are other people there,

there's a kind of energy that happens.

and you don't even have to talk about it, but there's a kind of

energy and

creating a space that

holds that energy within that group.

And, once again, you know, we just have

to go to say it's magic, because who knows why or

how.

>> Jeniffer: Absolutely.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: One of the things you also. I think I actually read this on

your website, that every city you go to, when you travel,

you seek out three places.

>> Judy Reeves: An independent bookstore, the

library, and what will become my home

cafe.

>> Jeniffer: Right.

>> Judy Reeves: Yes, Right.

>> Jeniffer: Which I love.

>> Judy Reeves: I was just in San McGill, the Aliente for the writing

conference there, and I did that.

the Aurora Bookstore. I went to the Biblioeca.

And also it was called

Kok K I B O K, which

means good smell in

some indigenous language. I'm

not sure which one it is. Aztec or whichever one it is. And I

went there four days in a row. And you go.

And then they say, oh, hi, you want your Americano

Yeah. Americano today. Hot or cold.

>> Jeniffer: You were becoming a local.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah, that's lovely.

>> Jeniffer: I love writing in coffee shops. I think there is a magic

to it.

>> Jeniffer: That's interesting.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: I always felt like maybe it was like the

solitude of being away from all the things in my house that

call me to do them, you know, do the dishes, fullold of

laundry. But there's no choice in a coffee shop you

can just sit and write. Yeah, but there's more to it than that is.

>> Judy Reeves: There is. And I think it has to do with the other people who

are there. They're also doing things

and many of them doing creative things. A lot of them

are where I go. A lot of them are

students, you know, doing their student work. But

there are also people who come in and they're doing

video things on their computers. There's just all kinds of

creative energy and in fact, well,

I have just witnessed you and your tea, how you make your

tea and what you brew up. And there's a certain creativity

to making the coffee, you know, and it's

the same kind of everything about it, you know, the way they're

decorated. Not all of them because some of them as

we know are you know,

chain and they all look the same. And so you can feel safe

wherever you go there because it's always the same thing. But the local

people and what they do like leats. When we

go on Thursdays in order to go upstairs where we meet,

we open a sarcophagus, an

Egyptian model of a

sarcophagus door, up the stairs we go and

there are all kinds of chandeliers and

sarcophagus. Sky

sarcopha.

>> Jeniffer: That's awesome.

Well first of all, why do you go to Listatz every Thursday?

>> Judy Reeves: My Thursday writers S group meets there.

>> Jeniffer: Okay.

>> Judy Reeves: Every Thursday at 5:30.

>> Jeniffer: Which Leatsz is that?

>> Judy Reeves: in Hillcrest.

>> Jeniffer: O. Okay. Okay. I've been to. There's many

list stats In San Diego.

>> Judy Reeves: 3.

>> Jeniffer: But I haven't been to the one in Hillcrest. I didn't know there wasn't upstairs.

>> Judy Reeves: There is.

>> Jeniffer: And you can like rent the space or. That's really cool.

>> Judy Reeves: We do San Diego writers inces. pays a.

I'm John Hustler who's the owner and all of the baristas

are just so supportive of local creative people.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah, I think, yeah, that's true of coffee shops. That's probably why

you seek them out.

One of my questions was do you like to research it

in advance or do you like to stumble upon the yes.

>> Judy Reeves: It's a stumbling yes.

>> Jeniffer: Yes, I know you. I knew that was going to be your answer.

And that's kind of like, you know, when I was reading this

book, I felt like I was

absolutely there in the present. On your

journey. There's a curiosity to your

writing, like you're discovering it for the

first time. And I am, as a reader. And I thought,

how does she do this? And then I

wondered, is most of the book from journals?

Because I don't know how you remember such

details or if you are able to just

transport yourself back through the writing.

Both, both.

>> Judy Reeves: But for this particular book, I did keep

journals all the time I was traveling because I was traveling

aloneus I was

traveling alone and the journal was my companion. It's

who I talked to. And so I kept

them all along.

And I kept them for some reason for all those 30

years. I still have them.

>> Jeniffer: Awesome.

>> Judy Reeves: and I don't usually keep all of my journals, but when I'm on a

special trip or some special event, then I'll keep the

journals. And the way

I settle myself into the

writing is to give physical

details of where I am, what the light is, or the

music, or what I'm drinking or who else is there.

Yeah, yeah.

>> Jeniffer: The descriptions were so beautiful. Like there was a rainstorm

in Amsterdam.

>> Jeniffer: That was just incredible. I read it a couple times because

I was so taken with the description. In

fact, I noted a couple places

in the book that the writing I just thought was so

beautiful. Do you mind if I read them?

>> Judy Reeves: I love to hear other people read my work.

>> Jeniffer: I was gonna say, is it weird that I'm reading them? Because I could have handed you

the book and it made you read them.

>> Judy Reeves: But no, no. I won.

>> Jeniffer: Mykonos is blue. Blue like the ink from

my pen and deeper, rich royal

blue and deeper yet deep navy of the

deepest waters of the Aegean.

did m I say that right? Aegean indigo. And

then lighter and white, bright

clean white with no shades of yellow, not a hint

of gray. Sugar cube houses. Oh my God, I

loved that so much. Describing them as sugar sugar

cube houses was just like, for me, kind of

gleeful. I read it again. I was like, I. This is so

good. Sugar cube houses

stacked cube upon cube climbebd the

mountainsides cleaving to the angles of hills

that echo the rounded mounds atop churches

whose domes are sometimes sometimes stained la

pie, sometimes blood red, sometimes left white to

gleam pure and bright in the island

sun.

>> Judy Reeves: Let's go there. I want to go there'totally.

There.

>> Jeniffer: You Bring me to these places I've never

been. And I thought, how does

she do that? But you describe it when you're

there. But also, like, talk to us as a writing

coach and someone who teaches writing. Like,

talk about the process of bringing yourself back into a

space. So effectively, if you hadn't

written in your journal.

>> Judy Reeves: finding a detail. And for me,

that detail. And when I think of Myonos all,

blue. I mean, when I think of Greece, it is a lot

of blue because of. Yeah. And

so finding a detail that you can

hang yourself on. and then

slow, way down, right

in present tense. Because when you write in present tense,

you're back there again. If I wrote in past tense, I'm

distanced from it. But here I

am. Like I started that piece

that started the whole book. This is a memory. Not

this. This is what I remember, but this is a

memory. And then it. So the

details are so important. I write a thousand words to

get a hundred words. Because, I want

concrete, specific details. I want to

have at least, you know, in every paragraph. I think it's

Flannery or Connor says in every paragraph, use three of the five

senses. That's a lot if your

paragraph'only like two sentences.

But to take a sensory inventory.

This is what I smell, this is what I hear, this is

what I taste. Sometimes I like, rub my

fingers together, close my eyes and rub my fingers together

to feel something. And

I feel it like I can feel the sand.

I can feel my mat. You know, you can buy those mats

on the beaches in Greece. And you buy those mats and

they're kind of rough straw kinds of things.

And when I close my eyes and go like this, I can feel

that mat and feel it on my body

and then go to the body and what is the body

sensing then? Slow,

slow down, go deeper. Thats what I keep saying.

Slow down. Theres no

hurrye.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah.

>> Judy Reeves: Even in an action scene, you know, when, in

these really intense action scenes often in movies

they'll do slow motion. Its like that.

It's more intense. M. So

that's what I do and why it takes me

199,000 words to get

92,000 words.

>> Jeniffer: Oh, I'm sure I'm the same.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: It's interesting to me how like you can smell something

and it transports you back to that

moment.

>> Judy Reeves: I think smell more than any of them.

Here's my theory is totally

unscientific. It's lizard brain.

Like when we were early on in our

development as living sentinet Beings. That's

how we found our food and how we knew our way around

was by smell. And so

that becomes m goes directly

to the lizard brain. Yeah, I know these things, but

yeah, smell is. And it's an

intimate sense too, isn't it?

>> Jeniffer: Totally. Yeah.

>> Judy Reeves: Inside your body. Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: When I was writing my memoir, I was

trying to, like, put myself back

in a time. And so I called my mom and I said I was

writing about my dad who had passed. And I said, what

deodorant did dad wear? And she told

me and I went and bought it. Yes. And I thought for sure

that was justnna, like, bring me back. And it

really didn't. I was like, I kept smiling it and I'm like,

nope, not. It's just. I don't know if I was forcing it

or what, but it just didn't work. But I was in a writing

class. So now we have two sticks of deodorant that

we do the house'just never going to get used that I can't part

with'because you never know because I'm not gonna wear it.

That's weird. It would be weird if you smell like my

dad. I appreciate you not wearing that deodorant, but I

can't seem to part with it. It's weird. It's like this weird thing, but someday

it's gonna be useful.

But anyway, back to smell. So I was in this writing class

and the facilitator wanted us

to smell something. So we were blindfolded so we

didn't know what the color of the thing we were smelling was.

And then we were supposed to write something,

whatever came to mind. And I wrote this

story of being five years old. And I

remember sitting on the earth in the sun

and watching my mom work in the garden. And I was picking

carrots out of the earth m and eating them.

And so I told this whole story of this memory.

And then she went around the room and she asked everyone,

okay, what did you smell? And I

said, beets. I was

convinced.

>> Judy Reeves: Say it again. Bees.

>> Jeniffer: Beets. Be E E T S. Oh, but.

>> Judy Reeves: You were eating carrots.

>> Jeniffer: But in the story, I was eating carrots, but in my

mind I smelled beets.

I guess what it was carrot

juice. It's like, really?

>> Judy Reeves: That's what she had your smelling?

>> Jeniffer: She had a smelling carrot juice. But like, I was just

absolutely convinced I smelled beets. But the

story I that it brought to mind

was if eating carrots. And I was like, wow, the mind is really

powerful. We second guess ourselves.

>> Judy Reeves: Don't we, we do, don't we?

>> Jeniffer: We think we know it all, but we really don't know anything.

>> Judy Reeves: We know nothing.

Oh, that's why we have to trust the pen, because

it's going to tell us. Like, I bet that was a wonderful, beautiful

story. And it sounds like such a sweet memory

when you tell it.

>> Jeniffer: It was a sweet memory and I had forgotten it.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah. And you know, there are times when

I've been writing when I'm really, I'm like, I have no idea

what happened. I have no like bits and

pieces. And at one point I

called my mom and I read her this piece and I said, I don't

remember exactly, like, but I just want to read this to you. And

she said, yeah, that's exactly what happened. I'm like, wow,

really? Because I thought I made it up.

And that's one of the things I do as a technique. And what I'm trying to

remember is just make it up. Just write whatever comes to

mind. And then pretty soon as my pen is moving

or the keys are tapping in my case,

all of a sudden it's wait, oh no, this is how it happened. And it

does come to be. It works its

way through, I think.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah, the memory and how that all works.

I mean, we have to keep going back to that magic, don't we?

>> Jeniffer: Because, yeah.

>> Judy Reeves: I mean, I know that there are certain things that can be explained

of how memories hook together and why

as we get older, those

connectors get thinner or whatever happens

that the synapse don't synap anymore.

>> Jeniffer: Exactly.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah. So

there's some kind of a physical thing as

well as the magic thing?

>> Jeniffer: Yeah, I mean, I'm fascinated by neuroscience, but I don't

understand any of it. Yeah, but yeah, it's fascinating.

I want to go back to your

book, when your heart says go

and I want to talk about the grief

because for me like writing about grief

must be so 30 years later too.

Did it bring you back to. I mean, did you

transport yourself back to that grief? A, was it

difficult? And B, was it

a way to process it more fully?

I wasn't needed.

>> Judy Reeves: I.

It was grieving still.

And again, it was like layered

grieving. And because I could go back

and had such strong memories

of particular instances,

###m Tom was a

voice artist. He was a voiceover guy and

he did commercials and you know that. In fact that's how we met.

I hired him to do some work

for me and so I have ah,

tapes of his. I have cassette Tapes of

his voice.

>> Jeniffer: Oh, wow.

>> Judy Reeves: Still.

>> Jeniffer: So you could hear them.

>> Judy Reeves: I can hear. I can hear them. I almost don't need to because

I can, you know, certain things I can just

hear. So I

would sometimes be

absolutely beside myself with

grieving again. Just allowing myself to go

back into it. Because I think

it'a good thing.

>> Judy Reeves: I think it'a good thing to feel grief.

I think it opens our hearts in ways

that need to

happen. To experience

again.

What a gift for me to be able to love that deeply, that all

these years later. And I know it. I'm not the only

one this happens to that I can still

feel the loss and also feel

the. To me, that's kind of how the grief

works. It'a sadness, but it's

also a joy in a way to

relive that love. I wouldn't be grieving this much

if hadn't loved that openly. Right.

So, So it came to me in different

layers like that. And it's really hard to separate

what was when.

>> Jeniffer: Whether this particular feeling of grief as you're

writing it now is new or did it exist then?

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah, I think it.

>> Jeniffer: That's interesting.

>> Judy Reeves: It's just. Yeah. Carries on.

>> Jeniffer: Well, I said before, there's like a sweetness in it. And I've always

been really.

I shy away from reading books about loss and,

and grief and cancer and you know, that

to me I'm like, I don't want to be sad.

Right. So I avoid them. but to me that

my favorite parts of the book is when we went back to

Tom M. And those moments when you're

losing him in the hospital were

so beautiful and so sweet. There

was, I felt, healing in the

writing of your experience. You know, in your writing of

your experience. So it was very interesting. It changed

my mind about reading books about grief.

And I think there is something really

important about it that we face it with. The

curiosity that you've

exhibited within every word of this

book.

>> Judy Reeves: I'm, What every writer wants is for someone to

say how

they were there present with you when they were

reading what you wrote. So thank you for

that. Thank you.

>> Jeniffer: Oh yeah. You're welcome. Thank

you.

One of the things that you said was,

you know, figuring out who Judy is. And part of this comes

from Alcoholics Anonymous. Sobriety

plays a really big part in this book and

in your life. And you, I

guess in aa people name each other,

right? So writer Judy.

>> Judy Reeves: Y.

>> Jeniffer: So you. I think you were Nice Judy.

>> Judy Reeves: Nice Judy, as opposed to crazy Judy. Cause there was a

Crazy Judy.

>> Jeniffer: There you already. She was already you're like, I

wanted to be crazy. I don't wa want toa be nice Judy.

>> Judy Reeves: I don't wa want toa be nice Judy.

>> Jeniffer: Who wants to be Nice Judy?

>> Judy Reeves: Nobody.

>> Jeniffer: and I totally laugh. It's that

Midwestern niceness that we've all.

>> Judy Reeves: Heard so much about.

>> Jeniffer: That's right. Chad's been running from it his whole life,

the Midwestern boy that he is. but you said, you know,

I want to be known as Writer Judy

before I'm dead Judy.

>> Judy Reeves: Oh, I said that?

>> Jeniffer: You said that. And I was like, yeah, yeah. You

know, who am I and how do people define me? And

do you feel like you've. You've accomplished

that?

>> Judy Reeves: Yes, I. Excuse me. I do feel

like people because my community is

so, writerly oriented. I think

that people do identify

me that way. As writer. As Writer

Judy. Unfortunately, I'm afraid

I'm also getting this name as

Busy Judy.

>> Jeniffer: Really?

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: Because you're always busy or you're a busy bodyy.

>> Judy Reeves: Busy Judy. I don't want to be busy. I don't want to be known

as Busy Judy.

>> Jeniffer: Too busy to have coffee?

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah. So I just had a text from a friend this morning. Said, I

know when you. We were just together in San Miguel. She says,

I know that when you're here, you just get so

busy. And I understand that.

New Year's. I said, okay, I'm not gonna be Busy Judy

anymore.

>> Jeniffer: Damn. It's just. You can't run away

from Busy Judy. I think it's like it's

life. I think

the world moves so quickly

and there's so many ways to communicate, whether

it's social media or email or phone or text or AM

Or m. Whatever. Yelling.

There's so many ways to communicate and there's so many touch

points that we are in this.

This loop that it's going too fast

and I don't know how to slow it down. And part of it is

aging. I have a theory about it. Okay. That as

we age, we have more information

in our head.

>> Jeniffer: And we're literally heavier in terms

of the mass of our brain, the amount of mass

in our brain. Chad's laughing at me because he likes to

do things scientifically, whereas I like to just make shit up.

But I just feel like there's so much.

You're with me. I know you are. There's so

much information in our head that we're just. We're moving

faster because we just weigh more.

Chad. That doesn't make any

sense? You don't think so? Okay, Judy, does that make sense to you?

Like when we're children we're learning, right?

>> Jeniffer: We're learning and we're sponges and it like

there's so much more space in our

brains and a year takes

forever.

>> Judy Reeves: Yes. I'm six and a half.

Right? We never say I I'm six or I'm seven.

It'I'm six and a half.

>> Jeniffer: Quarter y. We count the days.

Yeah, exactly. And now it's like, you know,

now it's more. In decades I've seen my fiftiesah.

Yeah.

>> Judy Reeves: And. And so the image that I have and this

kind of goes back to those filaments connecting things.

I think we have so much information. This is a lot of why

we. It's I can't remember things

is you remember that movie we saw and it

was that guy and he was also in that movie. So it was s like

these filing cabinets that we're pulling out. That's why we're

heavy.

It's heavy because our filing cabinets full of stuff.

>> Jeniffer: Exactly.

>> Judy Reeves: It's so ye. Yeah.

So. And

also I'm an extrovert and so

I love to be with people and so I make up things that we can

do together and

I love it. So I'd bring it on myself.

>> Jeniffer: Right.

>> Judy Reeves: Busy, Judy.

>> Jeniffer: Because if you weren't busy that'd be very boring and you'd find something just.

>> Judy Reeves: Oh, what if I a weren't so busy that I could like.

Judy, I would love

that.

>> Jeniffer: Oh my God. I want. I want lazy days more

than I can even begin to describe.

Well, let's just talk about this journey. I mean you

gave. You sold your condo

and you went on what was to be a year long journey

by yourself.

>> Jeniffer: Why?

I mean I know why because I've read the book. But

tell us like why was that so

important? Why did you suddenly know that's what you needed to

do?

>> Judy Reeves: I have always loved traveling. My

father, I wrote about it in the book how he opened up

his world atlas and we sat side by side and he

told me and he was wanted to

be. He wasn't. Didn't get to be the traveler that he. I know he would have loved

to be. So I always had that curiosity

that came early on and

I.

I don't know why. I had heard about it around the

world airline ticket when I was in. I think

I was in a meeting someplace and somebody was a

travele. And I didn't know those things existed.

And that's interesting. Around the world airline

ticket. And I don't know, it just came to me that

that's what I should do. And I trusted that.

I had traveled, by myself before. I worked for an

organization called Project Concern International. And I

went to developing countries,

Bolivia and Guatemala and Bali and places like

this. And so I wasn't

afraid necessarily of traveling by

myself. And remember, this is in the days before cell

phones, before all of that connection ca. Becausee

this is 1990 when I made that trip. 1990. 19.

Yeah, 1991. And

so, so everything was slower

then. And you

could take a train to wherever you wanted to go and you

could just get off and say, okay, where am I goingna stay?

I don't know. Here's a guy who can tell me things. And the

travel books. And I started reading travel books

early, early on and had,

you know, some heroes who were travel writers,

memoir and travel writing. that. Yeah,

I want to do that.

>> Jeniffer: There were some moments in the book where

it was a little scary.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: Because you come into this foreign place where you don't

necessarily speak the language or like they don't necessarily

speak English and you have to figure

out where you're going to stay that night and then trust that someone's going to

get you there. And at one point that didn't happen for

you. You were essentially abandoned in a dark.

>> Judy Reeves: Road at like midnight.

>> Jeniffer: You want to tell us that story?

>> Judy Reeves: The cab driver. People yell at you in Greece.

They just yell in Athens particularly, or that was

my experience, they ah, yell. And so he picked

me up at the, where I came in at Piraeus or

wherever it was I came in, I don't remember. And I

told him the hotel. And you would think that, that

taxi drivers would know the streets. I had the

hotel dress. You would think he would know it. But in the

Plaka, in Athens, it's

ancient. Ancient. And maybe this guy, I

don't know, maybe it was his first day on the job or something, but

he was getting tired of driving around, driving around. And of course

it's dark and I don't know where I am because I'm a

visitor here, I'm a tourist. and so

he just finally put me out.

Yeah, yeah, get out. We're done. It's down there. He

pointed.

>> Jeniffer: And was it, was it actually down there?

>> Judy Reeves: There was a light. Yeah, sounds

like there was a light. Distance.

>> Jeniffer: come to me.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah, there was a light. And I thought, I'm gonna go to the light.

I mean, what else would you, what are you gonna do? Yeah. So

I went to the light and it was a cafe

and she was just opening and I got a coffee and

I could find out from her where the hotel was. It

wasn't far, it was in the general area.

But it was, it was scary.

The other thing, in those days, traveling around Europe,

every country had different money too.

Yeah, it'true and so you had to change your money all the

time too. And I'm terrible with math and

I didn't have a phone with a calculator on it with

a translator to do that like I have now.

Yeah, there were some challenges.

>> Jeniffer: Well. And one of the things that, you know, was happening in this

book is there's a war starting.

>> Judy Reeves: Yes.

>> Jeniffer: You know, in 1991 we went to war.

>> Judy Reeves: Yes, we did.

>> Jeniffer: And that definitely affected your trip.

>> Judy Reeves: I came home a little early because of that I had to leave.

Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: And there's this moment where you're not

able to get a flight out. Flights are all being

canceled. I think you're in Delhi or near somewhere

in India.

>> Judy Reeves: Yes, I was in India. I was in Goa.

>> Jeniffer: And strangers that. There were

so many moments of kindness from strangers

in this book that I thought was so

beautiful. But there was a complete stranger in

line when the person at the, the

counter, the airline said, we only take cash, you know,

their currency or

I forget what the other item was. It was American dollars.

>> Judy Reeves: American dollars or, or

drachma.

>> Jeniffer: Okay. Yeah. And you didn't have enough money.

>> Judy Reeves: Right.

>> Jeniffer: And the guy behind you was like, I'll do, I'll cover

her.

>> Judy Reeves: Patrick. I can't say his last name.

>> Jeniffer: His name was Patrick.

>> Judy Reeves: His name was Patrick.

>> Jeniffer: Did you stay in touch with him?

>> Judy Reeves: No, never saw him again after we left, after we

parted in the Bombay airport.

>> Jeniffer: And of course you paid him back once you got to. Ye.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeaheah.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah. But like that, I was like, wow,

that was pretty cool. But those happened, those moments happened

a couple times.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah.

I like people and maybe I trust too

much sometimes and get taken

advantage of sometimes. But I don't wanna change that

part of me, that trusting part. And

I'm friendly. M a woman. One

time in Spain, she says, you're an American. I said, how'd you know I'm

American? I could be Dutch, I could be German, I could be anything.

Look at me. And she says, because you're smiling.

>> Jeniffer: Oh, well that's interesting.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah. Not the ugly American after all, the smiling

American.

>> Jeniffer: Right.

>> Judy Reeves: Busy Judy walking around with a big smile on her

face.

>> Jeniffer: Writer, busy Writer smiling.

Judy. There are a couple

moments in the book this thingpt kept happening,

happening to you. Three

different men, strangers,

Judy, walking along, minding your own

business. And in three different

places in the world, three different men

walked up to you and like whispered to

you. The one of them was in Rome. He said,

remember me from 20 years ago? And then he just walked

off, right?

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah, he just kept walking.

>> Jeniffer: I was like, okay, that was weird. But then it happened again

in the. Dubrovnik.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah, Dubrovnik.

>> Jeniffer: Do you know this song? And he hummed it to

you?

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah. Larura Sog from Cho.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah. And then there was a third one with a

man in India. He said, you are my

mother'sister contact. And then he walked away.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: What do you make of all that, man?

>> Judy Reeves: What are you gonna say?

>> Jeniffer: I mean, maybe. Or they were all secret

agents. I mean, I was like.

Or I believe in magic. Or at least they wanted you to

think that. I. I just think there's a little bit of like

mystical something in those moments

where they were called to say these things to you

for some reason.

>> Judy Reeves: Well, clearly the guy intoubrovnik would like

to have let's go have a drink or something. You know,

he was singing and we kept walking together, but

the other guys. Yeah. Just passed me by, so.

Passed me by. Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: Like that was the moment.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: I wonder,

There were several times where you were

offered opportunities to have sex or to have

intimacy with men. And I remember every

single time I was like, oh, I wonder if she's

like, is this gonna happen with this guy? Right. Like, I just kept

like waiting for the time.

But it didn't. You were, you did not.

>> Judy Reeves: That's not why you celebrate that whole time.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah.

>> Judy Reeves: Which is unusual for me, I have to say.

I mean, really.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah, I just like. And

I don't know if you wrote it like that, but, you know, it definitely created

this like, tension. This. A little bit of tension, you

know? and they were very sweet moments in

the.

>> Judy Reeves: And I had many fantasies, you know.

>> Jeniffer: Righteah.

yes, you were dreaming and your dreams were

very interesting throughout this whole journey.

A lot of times I felt like your dreams were telling you

that you needed to take back your

independence and your power.

>> Judy Reeves: Particularly that one I had in

Paris. about

that guy who I was having that off and on affair with

before I left San Diego. and

he inviting him to go on a driving trip with

me. And, I guess it wasn't in Paris, but

whenever it was. Yeah. And I knew that If

I invited him to go on that trip with me, that he

would be driving, and I wanted to

drive. That one still stands out to m me. It

happened in, It was in Greece, actually. I remember it

now.

>> Jeniffer: I. I was in Paris, too. Caus you told Amy about it?

>> Judy Reeves: Or maybe that was another dream. Was another dream, yeah.

>> Jeniffer: Where you realized. Well, Amy said to

you, Well, that's a clear message. Yeah.

>> Judy Reeves: Thank you, Amy. Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: Where is Amy? Does she live in San Diego?

>> Judy Reeves: She lives in Oakland.

>> Jeniffer: Okay.

>> Judy Reeves: And, she, is just doing

so it. So proud of her. She's just doing

wonderful. You know, she was a performer all

her life. I mean, she came out of the womb going, ta da.

>> Jeniffer: Well, and everyone. Just so you know, dear listeners,

Amy is Judy's daughter.

>> Judy Reeves: Yes, she is my beautiful daughter. I also have a

son, Chris. But, so Amy. Yeah,

so she did comedy and stand

up and all of those things for years and years. And then it's

like, I guess I better get a job. So she became a cop

and then a detective.

>> Jeniffer: Wow.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah. as she says, I had a captive

audience finally. And now

she's retired from doing that and now she's,

being. Doing creative work again. I'm just so

happy for her.

>> Jeniffer: No, that's wonderful.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah, we get to do projects together. It's fun.

>> Jeniffer: Very cool. Yeah, I love that. You know, she

joined you in Paris. I spent a little bit of time with you.

>> Judy Reeves: That was very sweet. Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: What was your favorite part about diving

back 30 years and writing this book?

>> Judy Reeves: I think it. Well, it was

certainly some of the places, but, I

think the interactions with people.

The interactions with people, those interactions with the

strangers who were so kind. But just

also, if I. The thing about

being, a member of the 12 step organization

is that no matter where I went in the world, except

Yugoslavia, I could. And I could find a

meeting and I could go there and I would be with people.

Like, be with my own kind, if you will. And

so, so I met so many people that

way. And in a way, that was why it was safe for

me to travel by myself, too. Because wherever I

went, connection, I had

connections. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just go to a meeting and say, I'm

Judy and I'm an alcoholic. And they say, welcome.

You know, even if you don't speak the language, you can still feel

it. So it was a lot of those

connections with people who I made.

>> Jeniffer: Before reading this book, I didn't realize that Alcoholics

Anonymous was an international program.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah. Powerful. Good

work. Like what we did when we went to this. What was then the Soviet

Union.

>> Jeniffer: I was just going to ask if you wanted to talk about that.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah. That some of the people. I meant

there. and that was organized. I didn't just go there

by myself. That was an organized. That was the only organized

thing that I did, while I was traveling. And it was

done by a group called, the

cassw Creating a Sober World, which

was part of the US USSR Cooperative that was

existing at that time in San Francisco. And my friend Camille

worked for casw, and she

was going on this trip. And so when I made my

plans to leave, and I knew she was doing it in November

and I left in July, I made sure that that

would be part of my plans to go and do that.

And, you know, it's like wherever you

go, you can find your own people, Whatever

your connection. I mean, whatever the human connection is.

For us at that time, it happened to be. We were all,

you know, in this shipwreck together.

>> Jeniffer: Right, right.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: I mean, one of. Well, I would say maybe your superpower

is finding and creating community.

>> Judy Reeves: my favorite thing to do.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah. And that's how I met you. I met you when

Riters Inc. Was downtown.

>> Judy Reeves: Yep.

>> Jeniffer: In that small little building before you moved to

Liberty Station. It was like an arts building, I.

>> Judy Reeves: Think, when we were downtown.

Oh, it was, the art. What was I called? Art

Center Building in the East Village.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's when. That's when

I first met ye.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah. On'm 13th Street. I think it's our center

loft. Yeah, I think.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah, that's right. Reading your

epilogue in this

book brought tears to my

eyes. It was such a beautiful ending,

you know, and we don't want to give away the ending of the book, but

we're gonna do it anyway.

>> Judy Reeves: I came home, you came home.

>> Jeniffer: She came home, folks. And I mean, you found

yourself like. So this is a journey to finding, you

know, searching for you, which you found,

I think, beautifully in the book. And

then you're at home and you're in a

bathtub relaxing. And then

it was like a lightning bolt struck

you. Tell us about that moment.

>> Judy Reeves: I was just trying to get my bones

warm. So I was soaking in that bathtub.

I had a candle lit beside me. wasn't

sure what. Now I'm here. Now what?

I was still kind of wallowing around in

the now whatness. And

the idea came just like that

to open a writing center. And the

candle fell off the side of the bathtub. Into the tub.

Literally. I don't know how that

happened, but it did. I jumped out of the tub, wrapped

myself up, and I got my journal and I started writing

five pages of. This is what we're going to do. This is how it will

be. This is how the furniture will be arranged.

>> Jeniffer: Wow. Wow. Down to that detail.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeeah.

>> Jeniffer: This is how we're going to pay for.

>> Judy Reeves: No, I didn't. That part I didn't know.

>> Jeniffer: But you did. You said you. Grants.

>> Judy Reeves: We'd get grants, we'd pay, have classes and groups and

workshops and people would come.

>> Jeniffer: And they did.

>> Judy Reeves: And they did.

>> Jeniffer: And they're still coming.

>> Judy Reeves: And they are.

>> Jeniffer: That's really cool.

So recently the mayor of San Diego

named. What day is it? March.

I should have remembered the date. It's Judy Reeves Day in San

Diego.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah, it was a July day. it was a July something or

another. It was. It was the day that I, resigned as

executive director of San Diego Writers, Inc. July

24th.

>> Jeniffer: O.

>> Judy Reeves: Thank you. Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: It's Judy Reeves day in San Diego.

>> Judy Reeves: I'll remind everybody.

>> Jeniffer: That's so cool.

>> Judy Reeves: But it is't. It's not the kind of Judy Reeves day where

it's perpetual. It was only that

day.

>> Jeniffer: Oh, really?

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah. They don't.

>> Jeniffer: Only in 2010.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: I. To change that, I think I'm gonna like, write a letter to the

mayor's office. We want July

24th to be Judy.

>> Judy Reeves: Re Day every year.

>> Jeniffer: I mean, every year.

>> Judy Reeves: Every day.

>> Jeniffer: It is every day too. Yes.

>> Judy Reeves: Yes.

>> Jeniffer: Well, that was pretty cool.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah, that was pretty cool. There were some

people responsible for that.

>> Jeniffer: I had a feeling.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah. Some of my co

conspirators with San Diego Writers, Inc.

had to do with that.

>> Jeniffer: Why do you think writing communities are so important to

you?

>> Judy Reeves: I don't know if I would do any writing if I didn't have a writing

community. I mean, look at me from

like way back in the day in my treehouse with my friend

Betddy Barnes and my sister. you know, let's do this

together. It's a communal act

for me. I mean, that's why that second book was

Writing Alone. Writing together.

>> Jeniffer: That's what I was just gonna mention. Yeaheah.

Tell us about that book a little bit. Writing Alone. Writing

Together.

>> Judy Reeves: Well, it, After I wrote a Writer's book of days, which

was the first day, the first book, that one just

seemed to want to be the next one because I had been

doing, At that time it was the writing center. So there have been

two nonprofit organizations the writing center was the first one,

and then San Diego Writers, Inc. With a little bit of a break in

between those. But. But I had been doing

groups. I just saw what was

happening when people came together in writing

groups, whether they were instructing, on the craft or whether

they were reading critique groups or generative groups like our drop in

writing practice groups, whether they were readings,

whether they, you know, you brought in some big

name teacher to teach you or whether it was

a peer led. I just saw

how. So, how

groups can engender creativity that might

not happen if we'on our own. and so

that's why I wanted to write that book. And so that book is

about, you can start a reading critique group or you can do a

writing practice. So it'kind of an instructive book on how to

do the different kinds of groups and the advantages

of each one of them.

>> Jeniffer: And you don't have to rely on a professional to create it for you. You can do it

yourself in your treeouse when you'eleven yeah, Kids

are doing.

>> Judy Reeves: It all the time. I see them everywhere. You do too,

right? Yeah. We get together and we make

stuff up. We pretend

we do.

>> Jeniffer: And I think we need more of that as adults. Right. We lose

that.

>> Judy Reeves: Do you ever have game night with your friends? Do you guys have

game night where you play games, like board games,

Old.

>> Jeniffer: we play games occasionally.

>> Judy Reeves: Well, I mean, I don't want to pry in your personal life.

>> Jeniffer: Well, it's funny you say it. sometimes personal things come up about

our marriage. I love games.

Board games, card games. I don't care. And Chad, I don't

know what it is. He doesn't like him. So I'm always like, we should have

game night. And he's like, absolutely not.

>> Judy Reeves: You could come out, come. We could do game night.

>> Jeniffer: He's not a game night person, but I do with my friends.

So the guys will sit and talk about music

or whatever they're talking about, and then the ladies will sit

at the table and play games. And one of my favorite

games is called Toss the Pigs.

>> Judy Reeves: Toss the pig.

>> Jeniffer: I think it's called Toss the Pigs. It's. So there's these

two little pink pigs, and their feet are in,

like, different positions. So. And then you toss

them. And then however they land

determines your points. And you want them to kind of

land on their snouts. Because if they land on their snouts, that's 10

points.

>> Judy Reeves: O.

>> Jeniffer: If they land on their side, that's a certain

and everything, you know, and it's very competitive and it's very

fun.

>> Judy Reeves: Isn't there silliness and isn't it. It's fun.

>> Jeniffer: Fun to laugh.

>> Judy Reeves: Oh, we have to do that. That's how you

breathe deeply, is by laughing.

>> Jeniffer: Absolutely. That's one of my favorite parts of the book too, is like you're

thinking about Camille and your friends back home

and how much do they make you laugh

and the silliness that comes out with being with those people. I mean,

that's what good friendship is about.

>> Judy Reeves: Oh yes. And there's nothing

like a group of women maybe

throwing pigs around the table. I don't know. Whatever

they do with that is just so

rich and warm and the

best time.

>> Jeniffer: Agreed.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: Well, one of these days we're gonna have to play toss the pigs.

>> Judy Reeves: I would love to toss a pig or two with you.

>> Jeniffer: We're gonna make it happen.

>> Judy Reeves: Okay.

>> Jeniffer: Before we close and I just want to say thank you so

much for coming here today and being with us.

>> Judy Reeves: Oh, it's my pleasure.

>> Jeniffer: And for writing this beautiful book,

dear listeners. It's so beautifully written.

Like you'll get swept away, into the

travel experience, into

just really leaning into

yourself and allowing things,

the curiosity in your writing,

allowing the world to happen around you and being willing

to lean into that. Like it's such a beautiful

reminder of how we really should live our

lives. Right. So I hope everyone

will curious.

>> Judy Reeves: I think that's one of the things that keeps us young is that

curiosity. Right?

>> Jeniffer: Indeed.

>> Judy Reeves: When was the first. When was the last time you saw something or

learn something for the first time?

>> Jeniffer: Probably yesterday. Yeah, I'm constantly

learning new things. Chad and I recently started doing

the New York Times crossword puzzle. And

so I'm constantly like, oh yeah. I'm like,

I didn't know that. I'm like, that is great.

So I think puzzles and games, they do.

>> Judy Reeves: They help us.

>> Jeniffer: Learn and not

become so stuck in our ways to be open to new.

>> Judy Reeves: Things and being playful.

>> Jeniffer: Being playful, absolutely. I was always intimidated by

crosswords because frankly, I was really bad at them.

And then I thought, you know what? I'm justn toa start. And then I realized that

there's really a, there's a

way to do crosswords and you

just move on t until you find something, you know, and then you like,

concentrate on that area and then things start to fill in

and then you have to think about the clues differently

and it's really fun. I've been really enjoying it. I.

>> Judy Reeves: Exciting.

>> Jeniffer: I'm good at it. But

apparently Mondays is like the easy crossword and Sundays

is the difficult. So it gets progressively harder throughout the

week. So one night I couldn't sleep. Chad was asleep in bed, and

I decided to try the crossword puzzle and I completed

it and I was like, oh, my God. I was

proud myself. Yeah, Yeah. I wanted to wake him up and tell him,

but I told him the next day and then he was like, yeah, I'm pretty sure Monday's the

easy day.

>> Jeniffer: But he's right. And then I love doing the

Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. No, you weren't like, mean about it.

Yeah, I know, right? Chad's a good guy, everyone. I want you to know he's

very supportive. I don't even know where it was

going with this. I'm rambling now, but I just

wanted to say thank you for writing this beautiful book

and I'm really excited about your novel. We'll definitely have you

back. So get that written.

>> Judy Reeves: Get busy, Judy.

>> Jeniffer: Pressure.

>> Judy Reeves: Get busy writing.

>> Jeniffer: Busy Judy.

>> Judy Reeves: Get busy writing.

>> Jeniffer: You do that a lot in your book too, where you callback.

And I like that. I like that very much.

I just want to know what

you would like to say to our listeners about writing. Because most of the people

listening to this podcast are writers. They're

readers too. But, you know, I think they want to be writers. They want to get their

workout into the world. What advice do you have for us?

>> Judy Reeves: Right.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah, yeah.

>> Judy Reeves: And I think writing without

writing without a plan, this is not a

product. You know, maybe it will become a product, but it's

a process. And so what do you

want know? Just look outside the window and write what you

notice today. Just start using

words and whether you wanted. Yeah,

yeah. Whether you do it with a pen or like I do

every morning, first thing I start writing, or whether you

do tap, tap on the computer. Any

way that you wanna do it, just start. And

you know, Natalie Goldberg was so good. She says just start with.

I remember. Because you're never

gonna not have something to write about if you go. I

remember. I also like to just start with a

physical, sensory detail.

M. Yeah.

>> Jeniffer: I love that. When you were talking about closing your eyes and rubbing

your fingers together and feeling.

>> Jeniffer: Texture. That's really powerful. Inn Take

that one. Thank you. Yeah.

>> Judy Reeves: Just do a sensory inventory. Right now I

feel right now I smell. But

the thing is, and I know this from

experience, someday I

will have the time to write, and that's not

gonna happen. You have to take the time to write. You have to make

the time to write. And if you don't do that, it won't happen.

>> Jeniffer: It's true.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah. Yeah. So get in a group. That's always

fun. There's so many opportunities. If not in person,

you could do it online.

>> Jeniffer: Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you.

Thank.

>> Judy Reeves: Yeah. Thank you.

>> Jeniffer: And thank you so much for being here today.

>> Judy Reeves: This is so much fun. It'good I knew it was gonna be

fun to talk to you. I knew that we would go on and on and on.

And we could probably go on and on.

>> Jeniffer: I asked Judy, do you have a hard stop? And she said, I can be here till 4. I'm like, great.

We're gonna talk for four hours. I will not bore our listeners

at all. You can learn more about

Judy,

@judyeveswriter.com.

follow her on Facebook at Judy Reeves 2.

That's T O O o and Instagram

at jarghte. And also

check out our substack the Lively Muse,

which is, full of all kinds of wonderful tidbits

and advice as well. This has been another

episode of the Premise. You can visit us

online@, theemisepod.com and subscribe

and rate or review the Premise. Wherever you get your

podcasts, these interviews are here

for you. We appreciate you listeners and we really

appreciate your reviews and your ratings. It

helps get the word out about the Premise. You can also follow

me, your host, on Instagram

jennifergrace, where you can follow me on Facebook.

Jennifer Thomon Consulting. Until next

time, thanks for listening.

Goodbye. Goodbye.

>> Judy Reeves: Goodbye.