00;00;12;08 - 00;00;42;22
Unknown
Hello and welcome to The Promise. I'm Jeniffer Thompson, and I'm Chad Thompson, and today we are here with Christine Pride, who I am so excited to talk to and for you to meet. She has so much experience in publishing and writing and editing and is just absolutely fantastic. So Christine Pride is a writer, editor and long time publishing veteran, where she held editorial posts at various Big Five imprints and published many bestselling and critically acclaimed novels and memoirs over her 20 year career.
00;00;42;22 - 00;01;03;28
Unknown
She is also the author of three novels, with two with Joe Piazza, I Should Say We Are Not Like Them, A Good Morning America Book Club Pick, and You Were Always Mine, and coming out in in October, is that right? You have another book coming out with her. I never knew you at all. Exactly. Yeah, that's very exciting.
00;01;04;03 - 00;01;24;09
Unknown
Frankly, I don't know how you do it all, but that is awesome. And then your solo debut, All the Men I've Loved Again, which we're going to talk about today, it was an instant USA today bestseller. In addition to writing, she does select editorial work, proposal content development and teaching and coaching and retreats. And we're going to dive right in.
00;01;24;12 - 00;01;44;28
Unknown
Christine, welcome to the premise. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. It's so fun when your bio is being updated in real time I know right. You're like, wait, I have another book. That's so cool. It's actually a little bit of a lie in my bio too. I listened to you say 20 year career. Now it's more like 25 year career, but maybe we can see it at 20.
00;01;45;00 - 00;02;04;07
Unknown
That's fine. We don't have to keep updating it. You know it's funny. It's like before 20 you sort of bump it up to 20 and then after 20 you just sort of leave it at 20. Like that's sort of the desired hotspot forever 20. Yeah, that is exactly right. Well, so this book just came out in paperback and it is so good.
00;02;04;07 - 00;02;30;12
Unknown
I absolutely love Cora. I love Nisha and Kim and all of the characters. I think especially I love Wes and we'll get into who these people are. But tell us about this book. Yes. So this is a rom com, a love story and sort of in The Second Chance man. So it's about a woman named Cora. And in college, in her early 20s, she dates two men.
00;02;30;15 - 00;02;56;13
Unknown
One is named Lincoln and one is named Aaron. And then life happens and twists and turns as it does. Yeah, as it does. And she finds herself dating the same two men back to back 20 years later. So it's about what happens during both of these scenarios in a dual timeline sort of scenario. And it's really about Ursula and like I said, checking chances.
00;02;56;13 - 00;03;25;23
Unknown
And it's very much a coming of age story, but with a love story backdrop which ultimately asks the question, you know, how do we know who's right for us and how does that change over time? And, you know, sort of who we end up with is going to be one of the most consequential developments in our lives. And Cora, you know, really internalizes that and takes that choice very seriously.
00;03;25;23 - 00;03;48;27
Unknown
Both in her 20s and her 40s. Cora is so fantastic. And it really is a coming of age story. We watch her come into herself and, you know, work through her own insecurities. And it's also a love story, not just with her romantic relationships, but with her friends, these college friends who she meets and like, they just find each other, they find family and each other.
00;03;48;27 - 00;04;12;26
Unknown
And then her dad, who is just this amazing character who everyone wants Wes to be their dad, I guarantee it. And I just was so taken with the warmth in your writing and how well you bring us into these lives. Like you just drop us in and we just stay there. It's so it's fun. It's funny, but we feel her insecurities.
00;04;12;28 - 00;04;28;17
Unknown
You know, we've all been there. You know, one of my favorite parts that I really resonated with was and I can just imagine her reading like teen magazine about, you know, she's reading an article and how to keep a man, you know, you get a laugh at their jokes and don't be too eager. Show interest in his interest.
00;04;28;17 - 00;04;41;00
Unknown
And, you know, she's just trying to figure out how to be in the world. It was the 90s. Yes. We were getting all of our advice from 17 magazine.
00;04;41;03 - 00;05;16;26
Unknown
And she has to learn to trust herself, but she asked people to help her along the way. Oh, I love that. And, you know, it's always so gratifying as a writer when a reader takes away or responds in the ways that you were so trying to get them to respond, you know, these emotional touchstones and touchpoints. Because even though we set out to write a love story, even in the love stories I read, I don't like the soul kind of 100% all consuming focus to be this romantic connection, right?
00;05;16;28 - 00;05;38;15
Unknown
Because we all have so many different loves, so many different relationships in our lives, and they each are just as important and teach us just as much. And so that balance was really important to me, that though Cora was struggling with love, learning to love, learning how to love, despite all those 17 magazine quizzes, there's there's really no manual for that.
00;05;38;16 - 00;06;12;20
Unknown
You know, it's it's trial and error to fall in love for the first time. But as you said, she has her best friends to help her with that. And core had sort of an isolated upbringing. I mean, she's an only child of a single father, and she's a black girl in a very white suburb in Northern Virginia. And so when she comes to college, which is where the story opens, she really is on a quest to find her people, you know, to really find all kinds of relationships, romantic or otherwise, that she can connect with.
00;06;12;20 - 00;06;47;28
Unknown
And Cora, like me, you know, found some very meaningful and lifelong relationships in college. So it's so much more likely that you're going to meet your lifelong friends or girlfriends in college. Then you're necessarily going to meet the one right? The person, the romantic partner you're going to spend the rest of your life with. But it's really it was fun to write these these long term friendships, which were inspired by my own, because you really do have these women who are coming of age along with you.
00;06;47;28 - 00;07;09;23
Unknown
I know all your history and right witness everything and call you out on things. Wow. Yes. Yeah. Keep you honest of it. Yeah. To yourself, I felt it, really. I really felt like Nisha and Kim were so real to me. And occasionally, like, when you're reading such a good book, you have to remind yourself that, oh, this is fiction.
00;07;09;23 - 00;07;36;08
Unknown
And someone wrote this. And, you know, in those moments I was like, oh, yeah, like, Christine must have amazing girlfriends to be able to write with such honesty and, like, bring you there into those relationships so powerfully. I do, I really do. I have amazing girlfriends and I really and lifelong girlfriends from college and I it really takes a village to live a life and and what you can see is Cora really relying on these women.
00;07;36;08 - 00;07;55;08
Unknown
But these relationships are perfect either, right? You have to grow and change with your girlfriends, and especially just coming of age story over the course of 20 years. One of the things that I chronicle in the second half to is how our friendships change, right? Like when people get, you know, some people get married, some people don't. Some people have kids.
00;07;55;09 - 00;08;19;05
Unknown
Some people don't. When you're not in close proximity every day to college dorm room. Right. Right, right. Somebody moves across the country. You know, all these friendships have to grow and evolve to just like our partnerships. And so we really get to see Kim and Nisha and Cora do that. And sometimes they're stumbling there, right as I always is in real life.
00;08;19;11 - 00;08;41;11
Unknown
And Cora is a real rule follower. Like, I just fell in love with her because she's so, like, innocent and sweet and she tries so hard. She just wants more than anything to take risks. But it's not easy for her. Exactly. I mean, you know. Right. Well, you know, in a lot of ways it's funny because a lot of this story is drawn from personal experience, the emotional truth of it.
00;08;41;11 - 00;09;02;16
Unknown
But in a way, I had to make Cora very different from me as as a character. Right? Just to have that emotional distance. And, you know, I just I wanted to write a person that's obviously different than I was. I'm not writing a memoir. And so, you know, she she's a little bit reticent to go to college, and she's a little bit sheltered and she's a little bit shy.
00;09;02;17 - 00;09;22;28
Unknown
All things I am not. But I was racing out. I mean, I loved my family and I loved where I grew up, but I was racing out the door to college. But the one thing is that she and I share, I will say, is this idea of doing things right? Right. If you can just do love right and do friendship right and do college right.
00;09;22;29 - 00;09;45;01
Unknown
And do, you know, fill in the blank, right, then everything will work out right. And we know that that's not true. Not true at all. Yeah. But we want wish we wish. That's a lesson that she, you know, she has to learn over time. And part of that is not following some other, some external rules. But as you say, trusting herself.
00;09;45;01 - 00;10;02;16
Unknown
And that is a process we all have to go through to learn to trust ourselves. Sure. I guess I'm curious about as Cora, as you're writing, and she's starting to come into her own and come to life. I'm just curious about was there anything in particular that kind of surprised you about Cora as you were getting to know her?
00;10;02;19 - 00;10;21;24
Unknown
That's actually really interesting. You know, she was so fully realized in my mind, and her voice and worldview was so fully realized that I think she didn't really surprise me. I mean, I do hear writers talk about a character, surprise them, kind of take on a life of their own. But I feel like she was my best friend.
00;10;21;25 - 00;10;45;21
Unknown
Right. And so your best friends don't surprise you? Sometimes? Sure. But there was something about how I. One of the things that I love about having best friend is the ability to know them so well that you can kind of anticipate what they're going to do, how they're going to feel. Right. Like, I, you know, I know after my friend sees her mom, you know, this is going to be the conversation we're going to have, like that kind of thing.
00;10;45;22 - 00;11;03;07
Unknown
And so that's a little bit how I felt about Cora. I was always one step ahead of her in terms of knowing what she was going to do and how she was going to feel. And I think that that that actually was a really gratifying part of the writing process. I think maybe it helps that you knew how the story ended, right?
00;11;03;08 - 00;11;28;25
Unknown
It's true. Well, you know, I actually did and didn't mean I knew how it ended, but I didn't. My my big writerly goal, I guess I would say with this story was that because I hate a love triangle where it's so obvious what the character is going to choose, right? And, and the other person is just kind of a device or foil.
00;11;28;26 - 00;11;54;14
Unknown
I really wanted it to be a nail biter. Right? Why would poor pick this person over this person? And for people to have strong opinions about that, even disagree with her choice, or wonder about it or dissect it? Yeah, yeah. And so in that respect, I didn't want and even in my mind, the ending to be so obvious, so that any given point I was willing for the story to take another direction.
00;11;54;21 - 00;12;15;23
Unknown
And I think that helped keep me honest, that both paths for her were viable. And I think that that was a manifestation of her romantic relationships. But I was trying to say is we all have so many paths that are viable, right, that are not going to be so clear cut, like the answer is, hey, go in that direction.
00;12;15;26 - 00;12;43;08
Unknown
That's where the trusting yourself comes in. And so I really wanted it to be sort of vague and, and tension building. I hope that you don't quite know who she's going to choose, but then you, whether you disagree or agree with her choice, you sort of get it by the end. Oh, totally. Yeah. I mean, I've found myself and I'm sure you wanted this for me being like, oh yeah, he's the one.
00;12;43;09 - 00;13;01;12
Unknown
Oh, wait. No, he's the one. Oh, wait. Holy shit. Like, you know, so, like, we're with her for sure. But I have to say, I just as a really quick, fun thing, I did a book club. I love to do book club. So if you want me to do nice. Good to know. Come in. Yeah. Yes. You know, chat with people, but.
00;13;01;19 - 00;13;22;21
Unknown
And so easy on zoom. But I got on this big zoom book club. There's like 20 members, but they had changed their zoom boxes, their names and their zoom boxes to Team Lincoln or Team Aaron. For who? I really? Yeah. That's so cool. So I logged in and there was kind of a poll happening. Yeah. I want to know how many.
00;13;22;23 - 00;13;46;14
Unknown
Was it pretty equal or it was pretty equal. It was more equal than I thought it was. Right. I think it was probably like 65, 35, but that still or maybe 6040. But, you know, I'll take it. It wasn't 9010. Yeah. Well, that's what you need. I wonder if, like any of them, if it changed like in the, you know, during the book club conversation, like, you know what?
00;13;46;16 - 00;14;04;23
Unknown
I'm actually going to flip teams here. That's so cool. I love it and I think I want to tell everyone right now. Go to Christine and invite her to your book club. That is such a great way to help authors spread the word and get their books out. And for us to, like, get to have a conversation with you.
00;14;04;23 - 00;14;20;02
Unknown
That's so generous of you, Christine. Yeah, it's really fun, and I love it when people ask questions about the story and the behind the scenes. Totally. Yeah. And I'd love to hear their thoughts. People are really shy about sharing their opinions about your book, and I just I live through that. It's really fun. Well, in your book isn't yours anymore.
00;14;20;02 - 00;14;39;11
Unknown
It's ours. And like, we add our experiences and our own feelings to it and it becomes, you know, it takes on a life of its own. It really does. Well, that's also it's such a good launching point for people to share their own stories. I've heard so many stories of people's second chance loves, you know, and all of these like very dramatic twists and turns in people's lives.
00;14;39;11 - 00;14;59;02
Unknown
And that's fun to to give people. What is book club, but a chance to really talk about your own life and share your stories and dissect the gossip and about your friends, you know? And who doesn't want to do that? Right. That's awesome. But, I mean, we have to tell our listeners that, you know, this idea came to you because it happened to you.
00;14;59;05 - 00;15;17;22
Unknown
Yes. So this is, like I said, very loosely drawn from personal experience. I was talking to a memoir writer yesterday. I also do some writing coaching. And she's like, well, I don't want to talk about this, and I don't want to talk about this, and I don't want to talk about this. And I'm like, maybe you don't want to write a memoir.
00;15;17;23 - 00;15;44;28
Unknown
Yeah, I was going to say, what do you want to talk about? So with that in mind, you know, that was sort of my philosophy too. I had no intention of writing a memoir. It's just like kind of a crazy turn of events that I ended up dating these two men at two different times in my life. And it just, you know, being a writer, even being a writer adjacent, like, if I was still working full time at a publishing house, I would say to somebody, this is too good of a story or premise, right, to pass up.
00;15;44;29 - 00;16;11;02
Unknown
Totally. It sounds fictional. Yeah. It doesn't even feel real. You're like, no way. Come on. Like, who does that? And so I think I just had to write it, but like I said, I really wanted to make everything, you know, different. And so, I mean, the same way kind of, you know, we are not like that, which was Joe Piazza, Nia's first book together that was also based on, you know, an idea that had just come to me.
00;16;11;02 - 00;16;38;02
Unknown
So a lot of times, you know, you have these nuggets of ideas and then you, you know, sort of feel compelled to act on them. That's the the basics of writing. Right. Coming up with these good ideas. And so I just with that, it was too good of a premise for me not to write about it. I want to ask you about Joe Piazza because and correct me if I get this wrong, but you were her editor or you worked at an editor.
00;16;38;04 - 00;17;05;00
Unknown
I thought you were. Yeah. And so. Yeah. So we met. So. So how did this happen that you're like, okay, let's write a book together. I know it's so strange, but it actually had been done once before at SNS too, which is wild. But I was Joe's editor for a novel that she published at SNS in 2018 called Charlotte Walsh Likes to Win, and so we probably started working on that a couple of years before it came out.
00;17;05;02 - 00;17;30;20
Unknown
So we're in the 2016 era, and as an editor, you're always thinking about books that you want to see in the world. Like, hey, what about a story about a woman who dates two men and or 20s and then under 40? How about that? But, you know, all these ideas are churning. But an idea I had at the time that I didn't, you know, initially at least think I was going to explore myself.
00;17;30;23 - 00;17;50;22
Unknown
I was I mean, a much more serious topic, but it was about police violence. And, you know, I love these what if questions that a book can ask. So the question was, what if you had these two lifelong friends, a black woman and a white woman, and their lives were really and their friendship was really impacted by a police shooting that hits close to home.
00;17;50;23 - 00;18;28;07
Unknown
Right. So taking a really hot button issue that people have a lot of feelings about and really humanizing it, right. Like how does it affect real people on the ground when violence like this happens? And so I been cooking, you know, just like the idea in my mind. But Joe and I, we were in the middle of doing edits for her book, and I sort of mentioned it to her, and it seemed like a good opportunity to try something different, meaning we would have such different perspectives as a black woman and a white woman and writing the story together as opposed to separately, or even Joe writing in a loner.
00;18;28;13 - 00;18;48;15
Unknown
Right. And so we just I mean, when I say, like, you know, it was like very casual conversations, you know, those like, what if how about maybe, you know, that kind of thing until more and more words were amassed in a Google doc? Well, we both did. I mean, I had a very busy full time job as an editor.
00;18;48;15 - 00;19;05;14
Unknown
And, you know, she was working on this book and other things, too. We were she was on the West Coast. I was on the East Coast. So we took our time. But by the time we had 100 pages, we were like, there's something here. And then there was we ended up selling it in a two book deal, and the rest is kind of history.
00;19;05;16 - 00;19;30;06
Unknown
And yeah, we have a third book coming out. Yes we do. So we have a third book coming out in October. And, you know, all of our books together are about race in intimate spaces, right. So you, you know, kind of, again, take this hot button issue that there's a lot of history, strife, complexities and really boil it down to how individual people experience race in this country.
00;19;30;06 - 00;20;04;03
Unknown
And so in this case, it's about an interracial marriage, a black woman who's married to a white man who is taking over big chain of very successful grocery stores that his grandfather who raised him started. And then Simone, that's the way of her. Her ex-boyfriend, who's always had a thing for her, comes back on the scene. He's a very successful journalist, and he is investigating a hate crime from the 60s that someone's father in law may or may not have been involved in.
00;20;04;03 - 00;20;25;17
Unknown
So what happens when the past may not be the past? And, you know, it's a little bit of a mystery about about what happened this night in 19 or late 60s. Well, you know, I got to ask you what it's like to write a book with someone because it just feels like, you know, writing a book is you're always in your head.
00;20;25;18 - 00;20;50;02
Unknown
So. And I'm so we are not like them as written from alternating perspectives of the two characters. Right? Yes. And did you switch off and on or like how did that. Yeah. What did you do? Did you write co-write each chapter? How did it work? Yeah. But most people assume that we were one voice or the other voice, but that wasn't the case.
00;20;50;08 - 00;21;15;10
Unknown
I mean, for me, it was a much more natural evolution because I had been an editor for 20 years, and that is just a very collaborative. Like you were in the page for rounds after rounds with a writer, so that that spirit of collaboration and the process of it felt very natural to me. And this felt like it just more of an extension of that that involved me actually pouring more words out from scratch.
00;21;15;11 - 00;21;42;20
Unknown
Right? As opposed to massaging other people's words. Right, right. But we created a detailed outline of what was going to happen in the story. And this is our process for all three books. And then we both take turns drafting, doing initial drafts of the chapters based on that outline. And that was very much intentional because, you know, writers have different styles, and we really didn't want the book to feel disjointed.
00;21;42;21 - 00;22;09;12
Unknown
Meaning if we ever did alternating chapters just in each of our separate voices, it would feel like two different writers wrote the story. Totally. Yeah, yeah. And so we really had to both go back and forth in chapter by chapter to massage each chapter, and so that it felt like Jen's voice and ry these voices, the two main characters, and we are not like them.
00;22;09;19 - 00;22;33;19
Unknown
Not Joe's voice and Christine's voice. Right. So the characters had their own voices. And that process has tended to work for us. And people ask me for those first two books all of the time. Well, would you like to write with somebody? But I didn't know any different. Yeah, that's how it was. So it was just like, I don't know, I don't have the comparison.
00;22;33;22 - 00;23;01;10
Unknown
And now that I've written a solo project, you know, it is very different and not, you know, not better, not easier, not harder. You know, it's just it's very, very different. And so I really I feel privileged to have had the opportunity to, to do both, to even compare the creative processes of that. Because I think you can you can take best practices from both.
00;23;01;11 - 00;23;21;15
Unknown
Like I've learned from both. And, you know, it's just like getting to have two different creative experiences, which is fun. That's very cool. And of course, I was going to ask, what do you prefer? But you really don't you like them both? I really don't. Yeah. I mean, I liked doing all them, and I've loved again because I had never done it before.
00;23;21;15 - 00;23;42;12
Unknown
So it did feel like, okay, this is a new challenge, right? I mean, I'm a debut author, essentially. Like it's I had written two books, but this was so different that I was like, okay, you know, I'm learning how to do the process by myself. Meaning not having a built in sounding board, not having a built in discipline accountability situation.
00;23;42;13 - 00;24;06;11
Unknown
Exactly. Yeah. Which can help. And so it was fun to it was fun to go into the unknown. Co-writing and editing was all I knew. And so it was it was nice to do something different and figure out what that process looked like for me. And, you know, every writer listening to this, and I imagine you have a lot of writers listening.
00;24;06;13 - 00;24;32;01
Unknown
Yes we do. We'll know that that is part of the process, right? Figuring out how you write. And I've worked with writers for decades and decades, and everybody has a different rating process. And they have to figure that out and trial and error. And I was just saying, yeah, I mean, I, I wonder, you know, we work with a lot of independently published authors as well.
00;24;32;03 - 00;24;51;17
Unknown
And, you know, they don't have that process of an editor who's working alongside with you. You know, maybe they have a developmental editor, and they certainly have beta readers and people who are making recommendations. But it feels like the relationship that you have with the big five that you've worked with is so much more intimate and back and forth.
00;24;51;17 - 00;25;15;13
Unknown
Is that right? It really I mean, it depends obviously, on the relationship that you have with your editor. I as putting on my editor hat, I am a very hands on editor. I in fact, I was just texting with a friend whose book I published in 2020. So, you know, I tend to keep all of my authors in my life forever.
00;25;15;14 - 00;25;44;06
Unknown
Yeah, that's really beautiful. Yeah, it is really beautiful. And because it is such an intimate, long, trust building, vulnerable process. And so I do think that there's a benefit in the big five, quote unquote, situation to be able to have that kind of ongoing support. But, you know, editors move, they switch houses, they leave during processes. You might not have the same editor, your old career.
00;25;44;08 - 00;26;08;17
Unknown
You might have an editor that's, as you know, not as hands on or has a bigger workload or, you know, any number of things I've heard from, you know, any number of authors. And so I don't know that I would automatically say that there's, you know, such an advantage in that way over independent authors. I think the trick is always to have trusted readers.
00;26;08;17 - 00;26;33;06
Unknown
I do not think that anybody can get a groundswell of reader strangers, you know, you know, random people that don't know you across the country to read your work without first it going through some sort of beta focus group, developmental editor or big five editor situation. And those all can look very different, but they all serve the same purpose.
00;26;33;08 - 00;26;56;23
Unknown
And they they all give you reactions to your work, and that's vital at almost every stage in the process. Yeah, so much so. And you know, learning to to find someone who you can trust and know they're steering you. Right. Because it's hard to let go of your darlings 100%. We all have them. I've learned that. I have them too.
00;26;56;25 - 00;27;21;08
Unknown
It's so funny. You know, being an editor is like being a doctor. And then you become a patient and you're like, oh, I would never do that as a patient. Like, oh, yes, I would. I do all the things too. But it really again, that's why you just need the feedback. But you also need to the flip side of that is to also you need to be able to learn to trust your instincts.
00;27;21;09 - 00;27;40;26
Unknown
And that was something that I really learned. Writing on my own is the training wheels come off right. You don't have another person or even an editor when you're drafting, right to say, what do you think of this? Or do you think this is even going to work? This might save me. And, you know, a week of work if we can just talk through whether this will work or not before I try it.
00;27;40;29 - 00;28;02;15
Unknown
But at some point, the independent nature of it is helps you build that muscle of saying, no, like this is going to work or no. This is why I believe this should be this or no. You know, I made this, these choices for this reason and that that's a skill and a journey that is part of writing itself.
00;28;02;15 - 00;28;22;06
Unknown
And sometimes I see early writers doing a lot of, well, this person said this and this person said this, and then my mom said this, and then, you know, my cousin said this, so what do I do? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. You can't. You can have trusted readers and great feedback in people that you trust. You cannot write a full book by focus group.
00;28;22;08 - 00;28;43;26
Unknown
You know for sure. Yeah. Everybody, you know, one person is going to like this and one person isn't. And so you just you do have to be able to settle those those debates internally. Yeah. Yeah. Like you said you have to learn to trust yourself. That takes time. I suppose it does. And it's interesting metaphor for course journey to it really is.
00;28;43;27 - 00;29;23;02
Unknown
There's a there's a lot of manifestations in our lives of learning to trust yourself. And I think what I was trying to do in, in All the Men I've loved again is show the manifestation, you know, insofar that every person and every character is on a journey, the manifest manifestation of that journey is I'm going to trust myself to recognize that this is the love that I need, that whatever anybody else's opinion, whatever the history, whatever the facts, whatever the obstacles, this is what I believe in my heart I need to pursue and to be able to trust that.
00;29;23;02 - 00;29;46;14
Unknown
But there's a lot of there's a lot of different outcomes of that. Right. And the same for writing. Right? I need to trust that I can do this is is just a significant, you know, a journey. Or I can trust that I can take this new job or, you know, make this new friend or move to this new place, right?
00;29;46;16 - 00;30;12;26
Unknown
A lot of manifestations of that. But they all they all come back to the learning, practicing and growing and trusting yourself. Well, and Cora's willing to say no to things, which was really awesome, because a lot of times we struggle with saying no to things, even though we know I shouldn't do this right, we do it anyway. And I felt like she got pretty good at it, saying, no, I'm not going to do that.
00;30;12;29 - 00;30;40;12
Unknown
Yeah, and you know, Cora, I'm no spoilers, but Cora has to make a pretty big decision in her young life, right? And and, you know, sometimes those moments hit us, whether we're young or any time in our lives where we don't have the luxury necessarily of the focus group of the feedback of this or that, because it's just too high stakes and to personal.
00;30;40;12 - 00;31;04;20
Unknown
And so then you're really digging deep to say, you know, what do I want? And what am I going to do? And sometimes that those life experiences where you can make a decision for yourself helps you build that muscle, right? Like you, you you've made a decision and you've done something for yourself as far as chasing a dream or self-preservation or what have you.
00;31;04;20 - 00;31;34;22
Unknown
And that helps you see that you could do it again and again and again. It gets easier, right? Yes, it gets easier over time. And like anything else, you have to do it. I mean, that's why I guess, you know, all the times that everyone over 40 tells somebody under 30, you know, just wait, you'll like you'll get better at this or understanding this or but but you can't obviously.
00;31;34;24 - 00;31;44;16
Unknown
Yeah. Young people what to do. No. Nor should you use the word young people. There's nothing takes you like that.
00;31;44;19 - 00;32;02;13
Unknown
I remember being, you know, in my 20s and even early 30s and people who were like, wiser and older than me, trying to give me advice. I'd be thinking, what is wrong with you? You know, like, I am so different than you. And now I'm like, oh yeah, okay. They were always right. They were always right. Yeah. You just can't hear it.
00;32;02;13 - 00;32;27;27
Unknown
But also you can't hear it over the screaming nature of your overwrought feelings. Right? You feel like you're the only 22 year old in the world who's experienced XYZ, or feels like they're never going to get the right job, or never follow their dream, or hates their roommate. Or, you know, the stakes feel so impossibly high and you're so wound up with every intense emotion that you can't.
00;32;27;29 - 00;32;50;01
Unknown
Yeah, you literally, I don't think can hear. Right. Yeah. Any advice or take it in. And then we look back and we're like, damn it. Why didn't I enjoy that time? Or why was I so stressed out about the future? You know, I know I want to talk about your writing. It's so good. There are some lines and some some techniques and things you did that I just thought were so impressive and so fun to read.
00;32;50;01 - 00;33;08;18
Unknown
But I want to read a line that happened pretty early in the book, actually, when someone named Devin Bryant, I believe this was in high school, and I love that you used his full name, because when we were in elementary school and junior high and even in high school, we remember people by their first and last name, right?
00;33;08;19 - 00;33;36;03
Unknown
So, like, drops you into that space with her and he calls Cora ugly. And then you write the comment, stayed with her like a fingerprint pressed into soft clay that hardened around the hurt and that line. I was just like, oh, because who hasn't been called ugly, you know, in those early formative years? And you wonder if it's true and you feel it like it.
00;33;36;04 - 00;34;01;11
Unknown
It must be true, right? Absolutely. No. This actually is a detail that comes from personal experience, I have to say. And but I think it's so I wanted to include it because I do think it's so universal, meaning you're so impressionable between 6 and 16 or even 18, right? Where anything, when you're trying to build a self-identity, who am I?
00;34;01;12 - 00;34;28;12
Unknown
Am I popular? Am I pretty? Am I smart? Am I I mean fill in the blank. Is my taste in music cool? Whatever. Yeah. Anything that contradicts that or tells you something about yourself you take as pure fact because there's, you know, nothing necessary to counteract that. Or when something's negative, it doesn't matter. You know, your mom could tell you you're beautiful all day long.
00;34;28;13 - 00;34;53;07
Unknown
It doesn't matter that you're never going to see again after fifth grade or whatever, you know, is more of a somehow more of an authority. But I do think these we have these defining sort of horror childhood situations that affect our view of ourselves and in turn, that affects everything else in our life. And that was kind of a one off moment.
00;34;53;14 - 00;35;25;15
Unknown
But it did stay with core. And I, you know, that's I mentioned that on purpose in the context of then you meet men and you were like, am I attractive? Right? Do they do. Will they see something in me? And you don't want to believe it either. Right. Yeah. And so, you know, it can be a throwaway comment and it can be, but by the the giver and it can be shattering and have an outsize effect to the, to the recipient.
00;35;25;15 - 00;35;46;15
Unknown
And, you know, you know, a lot of people I, there's a lot of people walking in the world right now will remember what their fifth grade teacher said. You know, you can't write. You'll never be a writer. You know, you're not that talented or you're a bad dresser and fill it in and they're still carrying that around. Yeah.
00;35;46;17 - 00;36;12;24
Unknown
I also really appreciated, you know, bringing us into her, her perspective as being a black girl in a very white, privileged space, you know, white boys at Prescott and her wondering, you know, is it because I'm black? Yeah. And I think that that's very real, too, because we have very different people, have very different ideas of what is attractive and who is dateable.
00;36;12;26 - 00;36;37;10
Unknown
And, you know, who is who is the quote unquote, you know, desirable catch in junior high or high school. And that though now we can look back and say it superficial or there's all these other things and who cares because, you know, you're going to be running a company one day or write a bestselling book or, you know, whatever it is, it doesn't matter.
00;36;37;10 - 00;37;00;19
Unknown
Because in the moment you these the social hierarchies in elementary school and middle school and high school do shape you. And it is shaped then by race because as I've written many books about everything is shaped by race, right? So is it like, do you not? Am I not datable because your mother or parents wouldn't want me to?
00;37;00;21 - 00;37;23;04
Unknown
Would not approve of that, right? Or do you just not find black girls attractive? Like, what is it? Right. There's a lot of emotional turn around. Not knowing that or not understanding that, or even having to think about that. So then we skip forward a little bit. And Cora is in this moment where Lincoln thinks she's hot and he's making it known.
00;37;23;04 - 00;37;42;19
Unknown
And and she feels a little bit of shamed that it feels so good to feel desired. And I thought that was really interesting, you know, as part of her coming of age story. Yeah. I think it's like you don't want to trust it. You know, Cora, Cora has a lot of trust issues, right? So so how can I trust this?
00;37;42;19 - 00;38;07;06
Unknown
How can I believe this? And if it if it any way counters a narrative that I've heard before, you know what I mean? Then how do I how do I really even understand what's happening here in all ways? Right. So when you fall in that kind of bewildering first experience of love, everything is so new, so intense, so unfamiliar.
00;38;07;06 - 00;38;29;09
Unknown
So, I mean, the hormones are real, right? So you feel physically like a crazy person, and, you know, core is really disoriented by all of that, by, oh my gosh, what is happening here? And I think what I was trying to do was capture that kind of universal experience of first love, because you never you did a good job like that again.
00;38;29;10 - 00;38;46;05
Unknown
Yeah. You know, because you can't do it again. Everything is new. Every touch, everything is like a fire. And you did such a good job of creating that fire. I was so impressed with like, damn. But it's also awkward. It's also like, how do I do this? What do I do? Is he looking at me in the morning?
00;38;46;06 - 00;39;14;17
Unknown
Is he like, yeah, I loved the. In your acknowledgments, you wrote that, you know, your friends read the book and they were pretty much across the board, like, yeah, more sex please. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I mean, you know, if you met my friends, that's their that's their running line for everything in life. I love that there was a line that I should have written it down that Nisha says to Cora, and she says, oh, I'm going to put that on a pillow.
00;39;14;18 - 00;39;30;12
Unknown
Oh my gosh, I can't remember what it was. But it's a good line and when you read it, you'll know it. Oh yeah, I do know. I mean, I should at least remember it. I remember the pillow part. I know, put that on the pillow. That's so funny. So this will be a good Easter egg for people to read at.
00;39;30;18 - 00;40;07;04
Unknown
Yes. There you go. Find the line. Find the line, everyone. And then I think at some point, you should definitely sell these pillows because I'm all in. I also love like the nostalgia and the callbacks was so fun. And I wonder when you're writing, do these callbacks just automatically happen? Or do you purposely like work to get in these callbacks, like things that like, for example, of all the gin joints, right, and says at one point, which is a callback to something earlier and, you know, 20 years prior and you do this so seamlessly, I'm just curious, like, is this important to you is just a natural part of who you are?
00;40;07;05 - 00;40;36;27
Unknown
Like, tell us more. Yeah, it was really fun to do that. I was joking a lot writing this, that I was writing historical fiction, but since kind of. Yeah, I mean, it is. I hate to think of it that way, but it is. But to the point, you know, I was in my 20s, in the 90s or, you know, 18 to 25 or whatever, and it, it you everything is so vivid because you I mean, there's science behind this, right?
00;40;36;28 - 00;40;58;17
Unknown
You experience things with, with such a different level of sensory overload when it's the first time you're doing all these things, like being by yourself and going on a road trip and, you know, having sex and whatever it is. And so since I personally, Christine, in real life, this was the time frame that I was doing all that I have so many vivid memories, you know?
00;40;58;18 - 00;41;25;05
Unknown
So it was actually the nostalgia stuff and the memories came pretty easily. Some stuff I really did have to time check, though, you know, it's like, when exactly did this song come out or. Right? Or, you know, when we were using emails or when people start to text, it's like it was so seamless, almost. But, well, there was like April people weren't texting and then, you know, they were.
00;41;25;12 - 00;41;50;17
Unknown
So yeah. So it was like going back to, to figure out when those, when those things happened. So some of this now and some of these things were very specific, but also the nostalgia was a vibe. Like for example, when you're in college, we couldn't find people on campus. You know, you just went out and whoever was out at the bar or whatever was there.
00;41;50;19 - 00;42;17;09
Unknown
Now people don't have that. It's like, you know, where everybody is on a location finder with a pen, but we just have message boards and there's something just different about the way you communicate, or like going home for the summer or going on spring break. You weren't talking constantly, and that changed how your relationships developed and changed how you kept in touch with people.
00;42;17;09 - 00;42;41;12
Unknown
It's actually a miracle that any of us still have friends from college. If we went, you know, before 2000, because it took so much more effort, you had to write letters or said push cards, but that's all. And pay long distance. Yeah. It's like you cared that much to put in that much effort. Like you really cared like, yeah, it's almost like we've become more insular because everything's too easy and we're totally agree.
00;42;41;13 - 00;43;02;20
Unknown
We can put ourselves in this little vacuum and like, not have any outside input. And it is, it's yeah, it's almost too easy to keep in touch with everybody that you end up, not you keeping in touch with a lot of people, but not in a real in a real substantive way. You know, I mean, most people are talking to you.
00;43;02;20 - 00;43;26;01
Unknown
You could talk to 50 people a day but not have one real conversation. And I think that that's that's bad is bad. Yeah. To come up with a, a very complicated writerly word. Bad. I just do not think this is good for us as a society at all. But I guess that's a different book I want to talk about.
00;43;26;02 - 00;43;46;22
Unknown
Chad, you're going to say something. Oh, I'm not going to say anything. I'm. I'm the quiet one here. Yeah, but I know you have some. I was I was about to wind up about late stage capitalism, but, you know. Oh, God. We don't need to do that. We'll schedule another one. Right? That's hysterical. We always talk about late stage capitalism with every book we read.
00;43;46;23 - 00;44;13;05
Unknown
Yeah, it always comes naturally. Evolved into a conversation about late stage. All roads lead to late stage capitalism. It's true. It's unfortunately, I want to talk about your writing coaching. I know that you offer retreats and teaching and like, you really offer a lot of support and help to writers. And can you talk to us about, you know, well, let's talk about Kenya first of all.
00;44;13;07 - 00;44;54;28
Unknown
Yes. So there are still a couple of spots left. This is a September retreat. I'm really excited because this is really a part and parcel of what I do in my other business. You know, novel writing is a business by the teaching and coaching component of what I do is really important to me, because just working with writers for so many years and working behind the scenes in the publishing industry, I do think it's an industry that can feel so intimidating and so opaque, and I've always saw myself, you know, whether I'm working full time in-house, which I obviously did for many years or now in my own business, I see myself as an ambassador
00;44;54;28 - 00;45;19;05
Unknown
for publishing to really help demystify that process. Right? That it's not about who you're connected to to get published, or how much money you have, or the credentials or the Instagram followers or all the things. It's about writing a really good book. And how do you do that, right? How do you create a good book, and then how do you get the attention of agents and editors?
00;45;19;05 - 00;45;48;26
Unknown
How do you speak their language? How do you present your idea in a way that is appealing to agents and editors? And sometimes that's a little bit different than we normally think. It's sort of like taking a sales pitches kind of class, but that is a part of being a writer today, right? Being knowing how to talk about and represent your work to readers and to agents and editors and in the publishing world is just as important as skill.
00;45;48;26 - 00;46;07;17
Unknown
And I say skill because it's something that you have to practice and develop as what you put on the page. Right. And so there's it's kind of a two pronged approach. You have to have the talent and the drive and the discipline to write a great book. And that's a whole arena of classes and practicing and coaching. And then you have to know how to talk about that book.
00;46;07;19 - 00;46;28;24
Unknown
And so I really help writers on both counts because I've seen it from both sides. So I have the kind of expertise of doing it and looking at it from both ways to kind of translate in the middle of, no, this is what you need to do, and I love it. That's awesome. People have really dreams come true.
00;46;28;25 - 00;46;48;28
Unknown
I mean, it means so much to me when my clients come back and say, I just sign with an agent or, you know, a book deal and states like I it was so much of writing can feel so competitive and cut through it. And why didn't I get this? Why didn't I get that? And, you know, I feel like my whole ethos is intentionally counter to that.
00;46;48;28 - 00;47;09;23
Unknown
Every writer having success is success for every writer. I really do believe that. And so I really try to practice what I preach there. And I think that philosophy is changing as a whole. I mean, I can remember 20 years ago it really felt like you kind of kept secrets, like you didn't want people to know how to break in because it was so hard to break in.
00;47;09;23 - 00;47;38;11
Unknown
And that has that whole attitude is really shattering, and there's so much more love and kindness in the writing world, I think. I think that's true. I do think it it does feel a little less cutthroat, but I, I mean, just because I spend a lot of time with writers, I do think that there is an emotional, personal, emotional component that does feel like, why did they get this and why can I, you know, like a code to crack?
00;47;38;13 - 00;48;09;28
Unknown
Sure. Or that something they're better than I am for, you know, and so much of this business, which is what I try to demystify for people, is about timing and luck and resources that, you know, there are things operating at so many different layers and levels in this business. And this would be a natural segue to late stage capitalism that say, business, you know, that is going to be beyond your control.
00;48;09;28 - 00;48;34;04
Unknown
And so you really can't say, oh, they got to reach, you know, they were reached pick and I wasn't. And I'm going to be resentful of that or what have you. Right. It just it's one that will it's the fastest way to madness there is. But to there's, there's so much happening that that all you can do is focus on on writing the best book that you can.
00;48;34;04 - 00;48;54;00
Unknown
Right? Absolutely. And there's so much help out there that there didn't used to be people like you who were doing retreats and who offer services and festivals and publishing conferences and all these tools that we can use to learn. But be get the word out. And I think that's exciting. I think it is, too. And I think people need to take advantage of these things.
00;48;54;00 - 00;49;17;18
Unknown
And again, I never want to tell people that they have to spend money to be a writer. But I will say that if you want to be published by a traditional publishing house, it is like being an elite athlete, right? So, you know, LeBron James didn't become LeBron James. I have to stop myself because I can't believe I'm actually using a sports analogy here.
00;49;17;20 - 00;49;41;06
Unknown
It's really, really, really off brand. But you know it the analogy does hold and that you're trying to be an elite performer in an arena, whatever that arena may be. And in order to be an elite performer, that that really isn't, you know, doesn't usually typically come down to I'm just practicing on my neighborhood court and someone is going to discover me right there.
00;49;41;07 - 00;50;15;08
Unknown
Typically, it's a perfect involved, you know, extra practices, extra lessons, you know, some strength and conditioning training, all the things. And so writers who want to perform at that elite level have to invest in themselves in that level. And whether that's financial or not. But the investment is the key, you know, that I'm I'm going to be willing to put my all into trying to make it in this, really, this industry that's really hard to make it in.
00;50;15;08 - 00;50;36;02
Unknown
And that's kind of what separates the writers who do, quote unquote, make it with with the ones who don't, who, who underestimate a lot of times what it takes. That is a brilliant analogy. And I'm going to steal it, if you don't mind. Please. That's so true. It's not trademarked. Not yet. Yeah. I mean, but I should, because capitalism.
00;50;36;03 - 00;51;02;27
Unknown
There you go. Jump right in there and then sue. Everyone know it's so true and. Yeah. But not. And it's important for people to hear, you know, in order to get to that place you want to be, you have to put in the work. And what are you willing to sacrifice to get there? Yes, absolutely. I mean, I have people who will just, you know, say, oh, I'm doing, you know, one draft and I got one beta reader and now I'm, I'm submitting.
00;51;03;00 - 00;51;26;29
Unknown
Yeah. And I'm wearing and I'm like, you're what? You know, and they'll say things like, well, just, you know, I'm going to see what the agent say. And I'm like, no, no, no no no no no no no no. Stop. Yeah. I'm throwing my arms up in the air. You can't see me because it's really you never want to show an agent or any, you know, anybody in publishing the work until it's your very best work.
00;51;26;29 - 00;51;48;25
Unknown
This is not a I'm floating this to get some reactions. This is. I've written a masterpiece, and here you go. I mean, it has to be the the kind of mindset of it. Totally. No, I mean, absolutely. And that happens. And then that's where people get their heart broken and they either feel disillusioned and give up, or they keep trying and they realize, okay, I need some help.
00;51;48;27 - 00;52;17;07
Unknown
Yeah, exactly. And that's the the trying and the, you know, doing it over and over and over again. I, I wish writers talked more about all the books that they tried to sell that they couldn't. I do think sometimes it gets to the point where people feel a little bit ashamed about that, especially if they get published and it's not yesteryear, you know, it's like, yeah, yeah, oh, I got rejected a million times.
00;52;17;07 - 00;52;46;07
Unknown
But then I had a blockbuster number one year times bestseller. But it doesn't matter. Getting published, period. Is is the thing right? Is the elite thing to do like a milestone? And so I do think it would be more transparent if people were like, I tried to query three books, or I tried to tell four books that were all rejected by publishers or editors before I sold this book.
00;52;46;09 - 00;53;04;05
Unknown
Let's all I don't know. I don't know how to start a hashtag, but hashtag. I don't even know if those were a thing anymore. But hashtag share your stories. Your failures. Yeah. Yeah, sure. Failures. Exactly. Well, you don't get to a win without failing a little bit. I mean, most people there's there's some maybe. But Joey De looking at you.
00;53;04;06 - 00;53;17;19
Unknown
Yeah, I know you. Listen. Yeah. I don't know if you ever read the IQ series, Christine, but when we interviewed him on the podcast, he was like, oh yeah, you know, I wrote this book and I sent it to a friend and she sent it to her friend who was an agent. You know, I got the agent and then I got published.
00;53;17;22 - 00;53;36;05
Unknown
We were just like, what allowed to tell that story? Oh, yeah. That's bad. Bad branding for the publishing. I will say, in his defense, he had been slogging it out for decades as a screenwriter, so. Oh. Got it. So he had time on task. He did, and he deserved that when it's a great book. Oh, I'm so happy for him.
00;53;36;05 - 00;53;54;01
Unknown
I just, you know, you hear that one story and then everybody feels like you're that one story. Do you know what I mean? Like, well, why can't I do what he did? Well, and then if you do, you think you're a failure because you didn't hit that like you did. But yes. That's not how it works. Okay, I should I need you by luck and timing.
00;53;54;02 - 00;54;11;01
Unknown
You know, I'm sure it was a great book, obviously, too. But, I mean, you can't be served by luck and timing if you don't have a quality product, but you also are served by luck and timing. You happen to know somebody. The timing is right. You know what I mean? Yeah, things aligned in a way, and that's great for him.
00;54;11;01 - 00;54;30;15
Unknown
But that's that doesn't make what he did more special, you know what I mean? Like the talent was the talent. And and so we think people have to keep that in mind so that they're they're open to their luck and timing happening in a different way. Well, and I think the key takeaway is don't give up. You know, keep working at it.
00;54;30;16 - 00;54;50;10
Unknown
If you want it, go get it. Don't take no for an answer. Exactly, exactly. And that's the hardest thing to do. And I mean talk about analogy and going back to love, right? We do it all the time with love. Like people have these terrible heartbreaks and terrible breakups and nobody has gone through life I'll never love again.
00;54;50;11 - 00;55;18;13
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then charm how you know, we find it within us to do that. And I think it's a similar kind of quality that that whatever's propels us to give it another go. We have to be willing to, to to have that same sense of resilience and optimism in other parts of our lives. I mean, one might be a little more biologically motivated.
00;55;18;16 - 00;55;43;24
Unknown
There might be some chemical things happening, but still it's it's the idea of, okay, something devastating happened, be it a rejection for a book deal or heartbreak or what have you. And, you know, I'm still going to try to do the thing. And yeah, that's all. That's all I can do. And that's that's awesome. I have one final question for you.
00;55;43;24 - 00;56;07;22
Unknown
And it starts like this. Would you rather be transported back to one day of your choosing in the past, or a random day in the future? Okay, I love this question. You. I don't know if you pick this or this is a standard. No, this is like verbatim stolen from your book. Oh, okay. I was like, I don't know if you know that this is I love Would you rather.
00;56;07;23 - 00;56;31;23
Unknown
And I wrote this. That's so funny. Oh my God. I was like, what a coincidence. I should have known. You've been a very close reader, but I, I do love would you rather at this point, you know what? I think I would have a different answer on different days. But at this point, I'm, I'm, I'm feeling very nostalgic just in general, like, I'm feeling very reflective.
00;56;31;23 - 00;57;02;29
Unknown
And I would love to go back to a day in my past and draw some knowledge of myself now. Do you mean like, just be able to compare and contrast? Like, yeah, like how much I have changed or how much my perspective has changed? I mean, it's so hard to know those things. And I think if I lived a day as me now, but five years ago or ten years ago, that would be really illuminating.
00;57;03;01 - 00;57;19;16
Unknown
Yeah, in a lot of ways. And so I think I'd rather have that than, I don't know, the future feels really scary right now, my hands down. I totally agree. It was a really when I read it, I had to stop for a minute and think about. I'm like, oh yeah, 100%. I would always go back. I don't want to know what's happening in the future.
00;57;19;17 - 00;57;39;29
Unknown
No, partially because I'm up in The Optimist and I'm like, I don't want to ruin the surprise, you know what I mean? Yes, I definitely agree with that. I mean, sometimes I think people are just curious, right? We're sure. And on a really bad day. Right. That's always like it might depend on the day. Because on a really bad day, you might be like, just get me out of here.
00;57;39;29 - 00;57;56;28
Unknown
I want to fast forward to what's next. You know, I want to go into the future. I want to save it. And so, you know that that could make a difference. The timing. But today is a day that I would go to the past. What about you, Chad? I'd go back to 1984 until my parents to buy Apple stock.
00;57;56;29 - 00;58;28;17
Unknown
Oh, yeah. Oh, God. Speaking of late, stage capital made that way to bring it full circle. Exactly. Speaking of callbacks, you know, what's funny is, like, mine was like going back to, like, a wonderful memory. And that memory is the morning, the first morning that I woke up as Mrs. Thompson the morning after our marriage. I'm smoothing, and Chad wants to go back and make more money.
00;58;28;20 - 00;58;50;27
Unknown
I think both of those sounds very romantic. We can do a lot with that. Christine, thank you so, so much for being here today and just for giving us so much of your time and your generosity and for just being such a badass writer. You are amazing, and I cannot wait to go read all of your books. And yeah, and I can't wait for the next one.
00;58;50;27 - 00;59;12;01
Unknown
Which again, is I Never Knew You at All with Joe Piazza, and that's coming out in October 13th. Is that right? Yeah. Awesome. Mark your calendars for the paperback for All the Men I've Loved Again. It'll be out in, you know, in whatever store you love to show. Yeah, yeah. Favorite India store but my local by often. Yes.
00;59;12;02 - 00;59;33;14
Unknown
Yes, exactly. But this is truly a treat. This was really such a fun conversation. And I love that you have this podcast and what you're doing for writers because, you know, as we talk about resources, resources, resources and community, right? Yeah. Like you're part of a community. And I think podcasts like this and conversations like this help people feel that way.
00;59;33;14 - 00;59;59;28
Unknown
And it's so important today more than ever. So totally. Yeah. And what you're doing. And thanks for having me on. Thank you. Well, you can learn more about Christine at Christine, and you can follow her on Instagram at. Be sure to check out all of her writing resources and her upcoming retreats and all of the things. And of course, go by All the Men I've Loved again in paperback.
01;00;00;00 - 01;00;21;09
Unknown
You will love it. This has been another episode of The Premise. You can visit us online at The Premise podcast, and subscribe and rate or review the premise wherever you get your podcasts. You can also follow me, your host on Instagram at Jeniffer Thompson Consulting or on Facebook. And until then, we thank you for listening. Goodbye. Goodbye.