00;00;00;24 - 00;00;35;21
Unknown
And welcome to the premise. I'm Jeniffer Thompson, and I'm Chad Thompson. And today we are here with a very special guest, Cassandra Neyenesch, and we're going to talk about a book that I absolutely love a little bit bad. It is absolutely hysterical. It's fun. It's dark. It's all of the good stuff. There's even a murder. So let's just tell you a little bit about Cassandra.
00;00;35;23 - 00;01;03;11
Unknown
Cassandra is a Brooklyn based writer, activist, and curator. Nine issue reviews and cultural pieces have appeared in The Guardian, The Brooklyn Rail, The New Yorker, HuffPost, Public Books, the International Herald Tribune, and Art in America. Cassandra, welcome to the premise. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I am so excited to dig into this book. It was so good and so fun and a little bit dark.
00;01;03;12 - 00;01;08;22
Unknown
You're a little dark, aren't you? Yeah, I guess so.
00;01;08;24 - 00;01;36;00
Unknown
I, I want to know if you're a David Lynch fan. I'm actually not a huge David Lynch fan. I appreciate the esthetic, but I don't enjoy his particular darkness too much. Okay. And that's. And we're not. Yeah, I could talk about it. I mean, yeah, I would, I would want to talk about David Lynch all day, but it's just it just is too creepy and sad for me.
00;01;36;00 - 00;01;57;01
Unknown
But, Yeah, well, that's a good point because your writing is not dark, creepy. It's dark, funny, like you really funny. There are so many times on this book where I laughed out loud, and I'm excited to talk about all of them. But before we do that, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about a Little Bit bad?
00;01;57;03 - 00;02;17;29
Unknown
Okay. So it's about a mad affair that a 40 year old woman has with her young roofer, which ends in a murder. So the book starts with the murder and then goes back into the story of their relationship. Right now that is interesting. Did you always plan on starting the book with the murder? No. Well, no.
00;02;18;00 - 00;02;38;25
Unknown
I planted on ending the book with the murder. It was a sort of a straightforward narrative. And then I sort of realized, based on agents responses, that I was burying the lead and that I should figure out a way to start with the murder. But then it took me seven years to figure out how to do that. I was just going to ask you, how long did you work on this book?
00;02;38;28 - 00;03;02;20
Unknown
Ten years. Dang. Okay, that's a impressive that you didn't give up on it. Tell us more. Yeah, well, so I have a lot of novels in the drawer. I've been writing fiction for, like, 30 years. Hadn't published anything. And I, I guess I felt like this book was my best chance. It just felt like it should be commercial enough.
00;03;02;22 - 00;03;27;26
Unknown
And it had, like, a pretty solid arc. So I just needed to figure out. I don't know, I just felt like I got to figure this one out. Yeah. So, yeah, I, I stuck with it, and I did feel like a crazy person for most of that time. Well, I mean, did you, like, work on other things and then go back to this, or like, did you work on two things at once, or was it just like straight up working on this piece?
00;03;27;29 - 00;03;57;13
Unknown
It was mostly this. And then I, I always published like little cultural pieces and stuff. Yeah. But mostly this I would like do a draft like do a version. Realize it wasn't going to work. Take a little six months break. Then you know each each version was like 2 or 3 years. When you like that when you start a new version, do you like start with a blank page or do you go in and like take chunks and move them around or like, what's that process look like?
00;03;57;16 - 00;04;20;21
Unknown
That's a good question. I think pretty much start over from scratch. Wow. Yeah, I think this is the first time I've done that. Okay. Yeah. And my. Yeah. I'm sorry. No. Go ahead, go ahead. In my old, like, other novels that I wrote, I would just write one, and then I just sort of give up on it. So I think this time I was like, all right, I gotta learn how to rewrite.
00;04;20;23 - 00;04;39;25
Unknown
Did you find that when you would, like, start from scratch, that some of the new writing was like almost exactly the same as the old writing? Yes. Do you find that? Totally. And I'm always a little blown away by it. I'm like, how the hell did I write that? Almost verbatim to what I thought I was rewriting? Because those sections work, right?
00;04;39;27 - 00;05;07;02
Unknown
Well, it's it or maybe they don't. You're you're seeing it in a very positive way. I get I get a little bit feeling of diminishing returns sometimes where I'm like, okay, that's not different enough that that was worth all that. You know what I mean? It's like what? I'm. Yeah, I'm trying to I'm hoping with the book that I'm working on now, I won't take ten years and that I could learn that lesson a little bit sooner, that, like, this is good enough and it's not going to get that much better.
00;05;07;03 - 00;05;27;28
Unknown
Yeah, I'm excited about that. And I'm rooting for you to get that done in two and a half years, because I really don't want to wait ten years to read your next book. It's so good. This is this is your debut. Yeah, yeah. My debut. Fucking awesome. It's so good. Thank you. So you live in Brooklyn? But this book is based in San Diego.
00;05;28;00 - 00;05;54;07
Unknown
So tell us a little bit about why you chose San Diego for this book. Well, so my dad's family is from San Diego, and he moved back there when I was a teenager. And I've just been visiting San Diego my whole life. So I feel like it's of any, any city in America other than New York. I feel like I know it pretty well, and I didn't want to set the book in New York, because I feel like there's too many books set in New York, and everyone's bored of that.
00;05;54;11 - 00;06;24;07
Unknown
And, and then the more I thought about San Diego, the more fun I started to have with it. Because I think sometimes when you're changing the circumstances, oh, like, away from you and your life a little bit, it kind of helps to reframe things in a way that makes it more creative and fun. And then I could think about the murder and where the murder would take place and like, what would be the particular problems of committing a murder in California?
00;06;24;10 - 00;06;44;04
Unknown
Right. Which I kind of decided was somebody might see your license plate number and take it down. This is and this is also taking place a while ago. So like before, cameras were up everywhere. Right. So then I was like, oh, the canyons. Like, there's no cameras in the canyons. And I do love the canyons so much.
00;06;44;06 - 00;07;08;10
Unknown
So it just became a really fun project. And every time I visited my dad and stepmother, I would drive around and try to figure out which house the protagonist lived in, which house her rival lived in, and so on. Where to dispose the body? Yes, exactly. The body is not disposed of per se. But yes, but you will find out when you read what happens to the body.
00;07;08;11 - 00;07;29;09
Unknown
Yes you will. Or does it happen to the body? Yes, yes. No spoilers here. I love the canyon pieces in this book because you do go into the canyons and there's even this, like, really awesome. Description. The canyons were San Diego's shadow self. You wrote the force of its hidden desires. The things it did when no one was watching.
00;07;29;14 - 00;07;49;25
Unknown
The way it came apart. And then you go on to describe, like, what you find in canyons. And I was like, so taken with that. It was your writing is so descriptive and just brings you right into the space. But like with feeling, you're not just describing something like you really bring people into like the emotions around that space as well.
00;07;49;28 - 00;08;17;02
Unknown
Oh, thank you, I guess. Yeah, I think it. I think actually I have trouble locating emotion sometimes. So I work over hard to find to locate it. And then I try to pick moments that I do feel strongly about. Like at one point, there's a confrontation in a canyon between the main character, Perdita, and a person who has their house on the canyon and is trying to block off the canyon and not let people use it.
00;08;17;02 - 00;08;44;12
Unknown
Although it's public space, and there is nothing that makes me angrier than like, people who have everything and want more. Yeah, I just it just feels like everything that's wrong with the country. So I was like, okay, let me let me inject that emotion into this scene by having that confrontation happening in addition to the main confrontation. So I do really like yeah, I look for that feeling at all times.
00;08;44;17 - 00;08;55;19
Unknown
That was awesome. Yeah. Because like you said, like these two people are having this confrontation in the canyon, and then a third person is like, y'all need to leave. You can't be here.
00;08;55;22 - 00;09;24;16
Unknown
And they're like, yeah, fuck you. We're gonna be there. We're fighting. Fuck you! But now they're, like, together in this, like, mission to tell this guy to fuck off. And it was so fun. And like, the twist was there's a lot of twists of how, like, the characters approach different situations, but I really appreciated. Oh, thanks. Yeah. That particular scene, I just felt like it was kind of static and like two expected, like these two kind of enemies would face off.
00;09;24;18 - 00;09;45;15
Unknown
And then I was like, I need something else in here to, you know, I've actually lived that a couple of times in the canyons where people really had to leave. Yeah. And what did you do? I told him to fuck off. You're good. This is public property, motherfucker. Yeah, exactly. I just hate that. So it just makes me so mad.
00;09;45;17 - 00;10;10;19
Unknown
Oh. I'm like, you already have the mansion with the view. Yeah. What more do you want? Right. Anyway, totally. I think we could. We could have. We could go down this rabbit hole. The three of us, for sure. But let's talk about the names. So the naming conventions in this book are so good. And I'm just curious where you came up with, like, Perdita Young for.
00;10;10;21 - 00;10;32;24
Unknown
Right. Like, that name is so awesome. Like, where did you get that name? That name actually just popped into my head very early on. Yeah. Young. Frow. Yeah. Young. I thought I thought that's sort of funny because it means young young maiden. And you know, then it becomes a little sarcastic when you're in your 40s, you know. Totally.
00;10;32;27 - 00;10;54;02
Unknown
Yeah. And she's dating a younger man who we call Nando, short for Fernando. Which is also a great name, so. Oh thank you. With was the naming like really important to you. Did they just like pop in your head and that was it. Or did you spend time with all these names. I definitely spent time with a lot of the names.
00;10;54;04 - 00;11;23;08
Unknown
And some I even changed at the very end. I wanted her children to be named Pilar and Diego. And oddly, people were like, why do they have Spanish names? That's weird. She's white. So I was like, okay, fine. Like, I think it's I don't know. Yeah. But, and then Fernando is because, well, they have this moment where they're commiserating that like the hippie names that their parents gave you gave them, and she's like, yeah, he named me for Shakespeare play.
00;11;23;08 - 00;11;47;19
Unknown
And he's like, my mom made me for the ABBA song Fernando. So yeah, I just it came from the song nice. I was named after a song. I think a lot of us are actually. Which song? There's a Donovan song and it goes something like Jeniffer Juniper. And so my mom thought that was very romantic and named me Jeniffer, which is spelled with one and two F's because Donovan sings it.
00;11;47;20 - 00;12;12;25
Unknown
Jeniffer for not Jen Nefer, according to my mother. Yeah. So there's a little bit of, you know, yes, I so apparently when I was, my mom was on the way to the hospital to give birth to me. My dad wanted to name me Cassandra, and my mom said no. Cassandra from the Greek myth has a bad end. And my dad said, no, but it's going to be a new era for women.
00;12;12;28 - 00;12;39;21
Unknown
Oh, good for your dad? Yeah, he was partially right. I'm like, the story is still being told now. Come on. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. So let's talk a little bit about this relationship with Perdita, Perdita and Nando and like where did you get this idea for this story to, to come into play. Like where did it come from.
00;12;39;23 - 00;13;12;08
Unknown
So that was really what came first. I just I had a lot of friends in their 40s and 50s who were having relationships with younger men, and I thought that was very interesting and I didn't really see it portrayed in media any kind of like anything, anywhere in a way that it wasn't sort of creepy. Yeah. So I just thought it would be cool to show that relationship in a way where it was like a regular relationship, a very connected, and very passionate relationship.
00;13;12;10 - 00;13;33;15
Unknown
So, yeah, that's where it began from. And I kind of knew that it was going to end at a murder. I just kind of felt like it was. So you're like, okay, something big has to happen, so I'm just going to murder someone. That's what I'm going to be. I yeah, I think it was more like the whole thing sprang from a kind of a fantasy.
00;13;33;17 - 00;13;52;26
Unknown
I think fantasies are like a very potent place. There's a lot of emotion in a fantasy. So. Yeah. Hope that's good. That's a spoiler. No, no, I don't think so at all. Like, that's kind of what it is. And Perdita is such an interesting character because she's like, she's super sarcastic. She's really funny, but she's really hard on herself.
00;13;52;28 - 00;14;16;11
Unknown
Like, in a lot of ways, she doesn't think she deserves good things, and she's always imagining people, like staring at her and seeing her. Who for who she really is disgusting. Or, you know, like she's just always down on herself. But but she's allowing herself to have this one thing, this relationship with this younger man, because it's so delicious.
00;14;16;14 - 00;14;44;12
Unknown
That's a very, I think, a cute, astute comment, about her being hard on herself. I haven't heard anyone else bring that up. It's mostly herself calling herself a whore and a slut. True, true. Yes. And that's absolutely right. It's like, can I not just have one thing? It's I think it's a it's a very it's a feeling that a lot of women relate to when we're especially, like, taking care of other people.
00;14;44;14 - 00;15;07;17
Unknown
And then it starts to feel like I have nothing for myself. And then suddenly, in that moment, it's quite easy to behave badly because you have nothing else. Well, and I mean, one of her, Atticus, is, you know, handicapped as well. He doesn't he he's on the spectrum. She never says that. Do you think he is?
00;15;07;21 - 00;15;24;29
Unknown
Oh, I just I don't know where I got that idea. No, I don't think she ever says that. It's just the way the other women describe him. So there's a scene in the book, and I heard you read this at a reading you did? That was so good, where the other women are like, we're moving the drum circle, or they moved it.
00;15;24;29 - 00;15;48;08
Unknown
And they didn't tell her. They just told her it stopped. And then she overhears their conversation, and it's because he's such a difficult child. So in my mind, I just assumed he was on the spectrum. That's very. That's very interesting. He's a biter. Okay, okay. He's a biter. And he also has all these, food allergies. And he's kind of, like, not a happy child, which people don't really like.
00;15;48;10 - 00;16;25;11
Unknown
He's a very. I feel like he's a very soulful child. Yeah, he really he is. But yeah, he's deep for sure. He's got layers and we only like get to know a little bit of, of Atticus. But it explains a lot about who she is because she's got this handful of a child. It takes all of her energy and her wanting to have this affair I think stems from being so exhausted by constantly caretaking and not just Atticus, but also her husband, who, like, he has a job and he goes to work, and then he comes home and he expects her to do everything and doesn't ever consider that.
00;16;25;11 - 00;17;07;06
Unknown
Oh, maybe you need a break to. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And I know that a lot of people can relate to that because of the problem with unequal domestic labor that is still going on. And, yeah, I think that, you know, emotional labor is still not really recognized as real work. And, you know, the worrying that you do kind of like all the dealing with the other parents and the social life and like their development and like their schools and like, you know, do they need a therapist and just the worrying and like, that stuff tends to fall on the mother more than the father.
00;17;07;09 - 00;17;43;16
Unknown
Right. So also like what I really love to. So we have this older woman in a younger man, but the thing she gets from him isn't just great sex. And he is. It's very clear that he's good looking and people are really attracted to him, men and women alike. But it's because he's this intellectual. He people have very stimulating conversations with Nando, who is a self-proclaimed anarcho Marxist, and like the conversations they have, are always like intense, deep conversations that, you know, she's not getting that stimulation anywhere else in her life.
00;17;43;18 - 00;18;08;16
Unknown
Exactly. And he's a Gemini. Well, that explains it all. Yeah. Hold on a minute, Ted. This explains a lot. He's also mean I am I am not an anarcho Marxist though. Oh what are you, anarcho syndicalist. Oh okay. What's the difference. What's the difference. I mean really it's, it's a, the anarcho is about the lack of power structures.
00;18;08;17 - 00;18;29;28
Unknown
Okay. And I don't know, I just, I just feel like, like trade unions are maybe more valuable than, oh, than an anarcho Marxist might think. That's all. And Cassandra, would you like to. And I feel I feel like that answer was a case in point. Like, clearly we could get into a two hour discussion about this between this Gemini and and we two.
00;18;30;01 - 00;18;56;07
Unknown
So I'm just here for comedic relief. Whether whether I'm doing my job or not is what? Yes. What I'm actually saying is that Gemini's, at least as far as I'm concerned, have an attractive, sparkly quality, like intelligent, sparkly quality. But and I have a lot of Gemini jokes, but, Yeah, he's very sparkly. He's like, he's charismatic, he's fun.
00;18;56;07 - 00;19;21;10
Unknown
He's like, attentive. He asks follow up questions. I have a lot of jokes about how, like, he innately knows the stuff that she learned in social work school, like how to mirror and hold space for your feelings. And like part of my point is, like a lot of people could benefit from learning. Men could benefit from learning those those things, and it would get them so far.
00;19;21;11 - 00;19;41;11
Unknown
And it's actually really, really easy stuff. It's really easy stuff. Like, I am convinced that every incel in America, like if they would just like get some better grooming and some nicer clothes and like learn to ask follow up questions, I'm sure they could get a girlfriend that that right there. It's the follow up questions will be a feminist.
00;19;41;13 - 00;20;09;05
Unknown
Yeah, yeah. And not smell bad. Yeah. And we don't ask for that much. We really don't. We don't. We're so easy. We're so easy. He. So there's these moments that are just so damn funny. And I have to tell you the, the funniest thing happened. So in the book, they're having this conversation, Nando and Perdita. And this happens all the time with them where they have these bizarre conversations and she thinks he's full of shit and realizes later that.
00;20;09;06 - 00;20;32;05
Unknown
Oh, wait, that's true. Like, for example, the church of Latter day dude, the conversation about how there's a church for The Big Lebowski. The week that I read that, Chad told me about this group and I was like, wait, that's real? And so I had to say her sort of same moment that Perdita had with Nando that like, that's actually true.
00;20;32;09 - 00;20;58;00
Unknown
And I feel like you did that a lot in this book. Like you threw in these, like, little Easter eggs of, like, truth that you think the world should know about. Yeah. I mean, especially the politics stuff. Sure. Like he's he's saying stuff that like, maybe in the Obama administration sounded a little too far to the left, and now we're all, like, becoming socialists.
00;20;58;02 - 00;21;27;14
Unknown
Because, like, the writing is so on the wall with, like, the, you know, the 1% taking everything. So, yeah, I thought that was kind of one justification for why it is set in the Obama era and not currently. I also, I kind of didn't I mean, I wanted them to talk about politics. I thought it was important for them to talk about politics, but I didn't want it to be now because it's too depressing.
00;21;27;16 - 00;21;50;05
Unknown
And also, I thought that the Obama era, like, mirrored the hope, kind of the hopes of the Obama era kind of mirrored Hadid's hopes as she enters this affair, like her hope for true love. Yeah. So, so and and the same time, Nando's just not into it. And she's like, how can you not be excited that a black man is going to be elected president?
00;21;50;05 - 00;22;13;17
Unknown
And he's like, it's not going to change anything, right? The voice of reason. Yeah. Which was Chad. I feel like Nando is Chad. I'm. I just feel like I'm really calling it with the whole Gemini thing, but totally brilliant. You clearly have one in your life. Two. And then Nando believes that we're all in a simulation. The. You know, the dream about the robot overlords.
00;22;13;23 - 00;22;35;13
Unknown
Yeah. So awesome. See, that's where we diverge. Yes, that is where you diverge. Strict materialist. There. There you go. There you go. You're a strict materialist. Let's see how long that lasts. I'm I'm not by the way I'm not as strict anything before being okay. Got it. But I do believe we're in a simulation. You do. Yeah totally.
00;22;35;15 - 00;22;55;13
Unknown
So I think I talked about this at that reading you attended, but I did a bunch of psychedelic therapy to help me get over my blocks about being published. And, yeah, I'm now, like, way out there in woo woo land. Like, I yeah, I think it's all like, you know, this is like a, like a school.
00;22;55;14 - 00;23;30;07
Unknown
It's like a school nation. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Wait, is this going to take play a part in your next book? No, actually, no. But there is one chapter that that I wrote after this experience where she's, like, imagining after she dies, that she'll meet Nando in like, a kind of a bardo between lives and, and and like, the, the creators of the simulation will tell her that they've known each other through countless lifetimes, and it's very romantic.
00;23;30;09 - 00;23;50;22
Unknown
Wait. And this is in your next book? No, this is in this book. Oh. It is. You remember that scene? It's a little tiny chapter. You could easily have have forgotten it, but. Well, yeah. Okay, so there's the third thing that we need to schedule another podcast to go deeper into. But can we go back to the mushrooms and the psychedelics?
00;23;50;27 - 00;24;05;15
Unknown
Oh, I'd love to. Seems like we just glanced over there. Yeah. This is going to say we can't really we need to go back to this. So you did talk about this when I saw you give the reading at one of our local bookstores in San Diego, The Catalyst, which is awesome. Dear listeners, go buy books from them.
00;24;05;18 - 00;24;31;25
Unknown
And you were talking about how you have this blog about getting published. So, so share this experience with us. Yeah. So about eight years into this book, I started to realize that I perhaps had some blocks about publishing, after all these years. And, whenever I would try to send out a query to an agent, I would kind of feel suicidal.
00;24;31;28 - 00;25;06;25
Unknown
Wow. So a friend of mine who's a psychologist was doing ketamine therapy and was saying how she felt like it was the future of mental health and how it allowed you to kind of do things differently. So I thought that's what I need. So I started getting ketamine therapy and then, I, I eventually ended up going to Amsterdam to do this two day journey with mushrooms and DMT, which is an insane, terrifying psychedelic where you go to like the fourth dimension and see these, like, psychedelic beings.
00;25;06;27 - 00;25;39;28
Unknown
And it really helped. All of it really helped. I really was able to get past the hard part, and it wasn't like it became easy for me. I just accepted that it was hard and that I just had to do it anyway. And I also in Amsterdam during the mushroom trip, it's sort of I received the information that I had written this book about addictive, obsessive sexual love in order to understand my brother, who's a character in the book, who is a who is a drug addict.
00;25;40;00 - 00;25;59;08
Unknown
And it was sort of my way of understanding addiction and like, processing his death and spending time with him. And then I kind of got addicted to writing the book. Oh, because I was, like, hanging out with my brother. He died about a year into writing it. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So Spencer is based on your actual brother?
00;25;59;14 - 00;26;18;16
Unknown
Yes. Oh my gosh. I love that explains so much for me. And it makes me want to cry right now because Spencer is, like, so lovely and so broken. And you Partita talks about that, how her and her mom realize, like, they get her and her mom get drunk and they have these conversations that he's like, he's a clown.
00;26;18;16 - 00;26;38;11
Unknown
But he's really like this guru who teaches them all these lessons about themselves. And if they would just stop and listen like they would learn a lot more from him, because he's actually really kind of brilliant. And there's so much love in the writing about this character, and I realize it's real. Yeah. Thank you for noticing that. Yeah.
00;26;38;13 - 00;27;07;24
Unknown
I, we my mom and I definitely feel that way that he he came. He was here to teach us things, and, it was hard, but but, yeah, he was very like, I think I think a lot of times when you talk about drug addiction, I'm not sure it's always that nuanced about how, like, how these are human beings and they're complicated and they're and they're beautiful and.
00;27;07;25 - 00;27;27;07
Unknown
Yeah, and or broken and all kinds of different other things. And. Yeah, I don't know, I also just thought my brother was really funny. So I tended to like make him into characters in my, in my writing. Because I mean, why wouldn't you? He's a great character, so I can see that. Yeah. And then now, like, since I become so woo woo, like.
00;27;27;08 - 00;27;42;24
Unknown
Anyway, my mom and I talk to him all the time and ask him stuff. So I think that's kind of like since I had to let go of the book, and I'm not spending time with him in the book. I'm just just talking to him all the time. We we. Do you think that's why it took you ten years to write?
00;27;42;24 - 00;28;05;21
Unknown
Because you didn't want to let it go? Partly that was part of it. And then. And then the psychedelics help helped you get over that hurdle. They were like, you're addicted. You're just going to have to go cold turkey. It's not going to be fun. Yeah. You just got to do it. And then like a part of me was like thinking of my brother and feeling like I can't go down like that.
00;28;05;23 - 00;28;23;15
Unknown
You know, I he wouldn't want me to. Yeah, he would want me. He wouldn't want me to stay stuck. Yeah. So all that, all that helped. Well, yeah. And now think of how many people get to spend time with him like me. They don't know. They don't know it, but they get to spend time with him in this book.
00;28;23;17 - 00;28;45;10
Unknown
I was so sad when it was over. And, you know, Spencer is probably my favorite character in the book is. That's so nice. He loved that. I love Perdita, I love her, but I also kind of hate her. I'm like, oh my God, you know what I mean? Like, what are you doing? You know, there's so many times where, like, she frustrates me, but her character is fantastic.
00;28;45;10 - 00;29;05;27
Unknown
But Spencer's just straight up lovable. And there's this one scene where mom calls Perdita and says, Spencer's missing again. I think he's using. And then she's like, talking about how when he was leaving the house, she started crying. She's like, what could I have done differently? And he turns around and he says, well, I guess he could have tried hitting me.
00;29;05;29 - 00;29;24;02
Unknown
And I loved so hard. I thought that was like, he's so realistic, right? He's like, oh, well, maybe you should have tried hitting me, you know, like you were. That was the other reason I was writing him, I think because his dialog came so easily, as if he really were channeling me. And so it was always just really fun.
00;29;24;06 - 00;29;45;01
Unknown
I always just knew exactly what he'd say. Well, in any situation, he probably was. I mean, I guess I'm a little woo woo. This whole word, woo woo is so ridiculous. Like, where did it even come from? Right. Yeah I don't. Well, I suppose it came from like woo. But, maybe, maybe. Did you want, should we think of a better word.
00;29;45;08 - 00;29;52;22
Unknown
We should think of a better word. Like perfectly encapsulated. Oh come on, come on. Which is we're which is.
00;29;52;24 - 00;30;15;12
Unknown
I like witchy seers, I see her. That's funny. Yeah. Actually, my friends and I were talking about, like, what? Woo woo names we would have for ourselves. And I thought of Cassandra this year because she was a seer in. In Greek mythology, Cassandra is a very witchy name. In a way it is. And that probably does have to do with mythology.
00;30;15;14 - 00;30;36;19
Unknown
Well, yeah. Good on your dad. That's so, so awesome. I want to I want to talk about Theo's family business, if you don't mind. Sure. So I'm reading. You know, I live in San Diego. Listeners, if you don't know that we are San Diego based, and the business that his family owns, that he works at is a printing business.
00;30;36;19 - 00;31;09;13
Unknown
And so you go into great detail talking about the sign and I'm like, oh shit, nine printers. This is all based in reality. And the funny thing about your name, Cassandra, is I know how to spell it because I've always been so impressed by the nine inch printers logo. So I'm making an assumption that the nine printer sign in San Diego is what you're talking about with Theo's family.
00;31;09;13 - 00;31;28;04
Unknown
Different name. I think it was van der guard or something. Yeah, the font treatment was so fucking good. And so I know how to spell your name. Like because of that sign. And Chad and I used to work with nine. They were a printer of ours because we were also designers and. Oh no way. Yeah. So like, we know nine as well.
00;31;28;08 - 00;31;54;22
Unknown
We've had also bought some of our other printers too. They did find some printers. So okay, so let's just pull that pull back. And is this your family business? Yes. This is my family's business. My dad and aunt got out of it as young as they could. And I feel I mean, I feel a little bad because I kind of dragged them in the book a little bit, but I was.
00;31;54;23 - 00;32;15;00
Unknown
I was like, with all that. Maybe that's true. I think that all was true. It was very like macho, like the ants were only allowed to be secretaries. My aunt tells a story of going to a shareholders meeting once, and the uncles tried to get her to take dictation. And my aunt is, like, the smartest of all the nine issues.
00;32;15;03 - 00;32;37;27
Unknown
So she was like, they I mean, they wish they had her working there. She was like, oh, you want me to be a secretary? Like a secretary of shareholders? Meeting is a really important position. We need to have an election. Are you saying that like. And they were like, what? But I hear that Candy, who is married to one of my father's cousins, is now the head of the printing shop.
00;32;37;27 - 00;33;04;21
Unknown
And for for the first time, it's doing really, really well. So I have to give props to Candy. I'm really happy to hear that they're doing well. And I also think it's kind of interesting that it's a woman. Your dad was right. The women are taking over. Yeah. And also that she's not of the family proper. Because as I say in the book, arguing with your cousins is not a good way to run a business.
00;33;04;23 - 00;33;29;25
Unknown
So it's all very interesting. I think it's a really interesting coda. Nice printers. I'm sorry for dragging you. That's ancient history. But still paying for a really good story. Yeah, but still painful. Well, that's that's fun. So anyone who's from San Diego when you're talking about, you know, and it's Vestergaard. Is that right? Vestergaard. The sign they we can all imagine the Nitish line right off the highway.
00;33;29;26 - 00;33;54;09
Unknown
Five I also always thought it was funny because I did summer jobs in San Diego, and some people did seem to think I was a big deal. And I was like, no, no, no, you don't understand. The company doesn't do well. That's funny. And that's kind of what you like. You know, Theo, people think he's rich and that he must have lots of money because his name is on the sign near the airport.
00;33;54;09 - 00;34;12;20
Unknown
But in fact, the way you describe it is probably exactly what you're talking about in real life. Yeah, used to be. I don't know now. So I want to talk about some more, like real life things that I'm dying to know if these are true. So for example, on page 136, Perdita is in middle school. Maybe. Or maybe high school.
00;34;12;21 - 00;34;34;07
Unknown
She's slow dancing to stairway to Heaven with, oh, it's in the seventh grade, and he tears away from her during the guitar break, jumps on the stage and starts moonwalking. Does that actually happen? Yes it did. That is so odd. There's no way that I was like, that's so. And I can totally picture it walking during a Zeppelin song.
00;34;34;08 - 00;35;00;16
Unknown
It's great, it's great, it's brilliant. Brilliant. Yeah, I think, I guess I think of writing as kind of collage, and that's one reason why, because in a way you can't beat the truth, but you can't. You can't just tell it straight, like you got to steal it and reorganize it and, you know, repurpose it. I mean, I love, like, overheard conversation, you know, I've I've stolen lines from all of my friends.
00;35;00;18 - 00;35;30;06
Unknown
They have they have given me permission for the most part. Yeah. Beware. If you're in a relationship with a writer, something you say is going to end up maybe not exactly as it happened, but some form of it, which I think is really awesome. It is awesome. I have to give props to my husband. He's been very cool about this book because of course there is some of him in Theo.
00;35;30;09 - 00;35;51;13
Unknown
Who's the person like? Theo is the most. And that's part of the reason why I would get so angry at Perdita sometimes, because she's married to this thoughtful, you know, loving husband who just adores her. But yet she needs a little. She needs tension, and that's what's missing. But, yeah, he was definitely, like, a very likable character.
00;35;51;15 - 00;36;13;11
Unknown
I don't think it's said he she he she needs tension. It's that she's horribly disappointed that he doesn't help her well, and he's not even interested in, in helping with his kids. And it's just yeah, it's just she feels very sad. And I said lonely. Well, if he tries toward the end, he tries. Yeah. No, he does get it.
00;36;13;13 - 00;36;45;04
Unknown
Yes. He's a little dumb about it in the beginning. Like he's totally clueless. Yeah. That she needs him to step up. But he starts to realize that and then he does or at least tries. But anyway, we won't go too much deeper into that. Okay, one more scene that I have to know if this is true. So sixth grade, Perdita is in a little hippie co-op school in San Francisco, and then the kids all break out into tears when they hear that Ronald Reagan was shot.
00;36;45;06 - 00;37;01;26
Unknown
I don't know why that makes me laugh so hard. It's terrible. Then I apologize, listeners, I'm really not a bad person, but I thought that that scene made me laugh, that these little hippie kids, I can just imagine them. Like hearing about how Ronald Reagan is bad. So he's been shot and they all start cheering. And of course, the teacher comes out.
00;37;01;26 - 00;37;24;18
Unknown
I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. We don't we don't cheer, you know, like that's that's not a good thing that she says. She says, we don't behave that way in a civilized democracy no matter how much we hate Reagan. No. That's right, that's right, that's right. Yeah. Did that happen? Yes, it did, I, I, I went to, like, a little hippie school.
00;37;24;20 - 00;37;50;02
Unknown
That's now a fancy school called Village Community School. And we had this really awesome principal who I did not know was a lesbian, who had a little bell when she called assembly. And she was the one who said that. Yes. Your parents were cool. My parents are cool. My parents are extremely cool. Yes. And I got to meet your dad and I and your step mom, who was also lovely.
00;37;50;07 - 00;38;16;00
Unknown
Also very cool. So what's next for you? Like this. This next book. You probably can't tell us anything about it, right? Oh, I can, yes, I can. Okay, give us a little teaser. Okay. It's a it's a Pride and Prejudice adaptation. Contemporary. And it's the Elizabeth Bennet character. The protagonist is like a socialist girl from New York who grew up in a railroad apartment.
00;38;16;04 - 00;38;42;10
Unknown
And the love interest is a Colorado cattle rancher. So instead of the class divide of Pride and Prejudice, it's about the the partizan divide in our country. Oh, fascinating. Yeah, because I feel there's an erotic to it, you know. Sure. The hatred. And we all love cowboys deep down. I mean Yellowstone was massive, right. Well that sounds exciting and yeah I look forward to it.
00;38;42;12 - 00;39;06;29
Unknown
So have you one more question. Are you a yes ander or a no Ander. I'm a no butter a no but no butter. That's a no butter instead of a yes. Ander I got it. I am a no butter. And I actually had to learn to. Yes. And in writing more it's and it's funny because I am such a no butter I'll create whole things where it's like in the person's mind or it didn't happen.
00;39;06;29 - 00;39;25;26
Unknown
And then I'm like, why don't I just make it happen? The so the scene that opens the book where Nando falls off the ladder, in the I that used to be that like sort of a something that happened in his past that he just told her about and that it took me almost to the end of writing the book to think, why don't I.
00;39;25;28 - 00;39;56;28
Unknown
Yes. And that why don't I make it a scene? And then it became the first scene in the book. So, yeah, it's, I'm definitely a no butter and I'm learning to. Yes. And, you know, that scene is so important because it creates this intimacy between these two characters that might not have existed. I mean, I'm sure you would have created it in some way, but but that's I just love hearing about how the story unfolds and how it evolves for you.
00;39;57;05 - 00;40;29;03
Unknown
You know, as you're experiencing their relationship and getting to know them better. Are there any other scenes like that that stand out to you that like, started to develop later on that really helped bring it all together? That started later on. That's an interesting question. I can't think of anything off the top of my head, honestly.
00;40;29;05 - 00;41;14;08
Unknown
Yeah. I can't think of anything. Honestly, I think most of the pieces were kind of there, and it was just sort of many years of like, reorganizing them. What surprised you the most about these characters or nothing because you knew, what surprised me, I think I think Nando surprised me by being, like, more inconsistent and and dishonest than I expected and just a prize me by being,
00;41;14;11 - 00;41;35;10
Unknown
I think, a lot more capable than I expected. Yeah, yeah. That's cool, that's cool. Do you write every day? I do, do you know I need to? Oh, this is. Yeah. This is this is a problem with me. Oh, and can I just ask you. But are you, I guess, Sandra or a no butter? I think I'll be guessing under.
00;41;35;11 - 00;41;55;22
Unknown
What do you think, Chad? Maybe you can answer that better, I don't know what that means. Well, I think I'm a yes, Ander. I'm the kind of person that will get it accomplished no matter what. Like, I don't let anything get in my way except writing, obviously, just as me. If I write every day. You know, when I think of.
00;41;55;23 - 00;42;22;12
Unknown
Yes. And and, you know, Chad brought this up recently, probably in the last four months, about how I need to approach everything more with a guest. And, and I'm trying to figure out what that which is funny because I'm, I'm more of a no. Why? Totally. Why? No. Why are we doing this and. Yeah. Yeah, yeah I mean and I can, can I even, I don't know, categorize it in that way because I guess it depends on what it was.
00;42;22;13 - 00;42;39;26
Unknown
But I'm an incredibly tenacious person and I also put others ahead of me, which is why I don't write, because I need to get all these other things done before I can spend the time to do the thing I want to do, which is right. But I'm also afraid of writing. You know, like when you sit down to write, like it's kind of exhausting.
00;42;39;26 - 00;42;59;25
Unknown
It's exhilarating, it's heartbreaking. And so every time I imagine myself sitting down to right, I know I'm going to go through all those emotions and I'm like, I'm just going to wait a little longer. I'll do that tomorrow. Oh, it sounds like you could do some parts work. Do you know parts work? No, but tell me more. It's also called internal family systems therapy.
00;42;59;25 - 00;43;22;20
Unknown
It's like when you talk to all your feelings and you get to know them, and then they don't bother you as much. So, it sounds like you could. You could learn to talk to those feelings and be like, hey, I'm actually fine. I'm sitting in my house. I'm safe. Like, I don't know exactly what form it would take for you, but that kind of work actually really helped me a lot with the last couple of years.
00;43;22;20 - 00;43;40;01
Unknown
Of all the even after you publish a book, there's a lot of there's a whole roller coaster of feelings. And I've really learned how to talk to those feelings when they're bothering me and like, find out why they're bothering me. And then and then there's this part of it where you go, you know, you could go, is there something else you'd like to do?
00;43;40;01 - 00;43;58;24
Unknown
And then the feeling can go do something else for a while. So it's very, very helpful when I think when you have a lot of blocks in your way. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, like people talk about writer's block. But for me it's not writer's block. Like I'm more worried about when I sit down. It's like a spigot and I can't sleep.
00;43;58;24 - 00;44;17;08
Unknown
I can't think about anything else because it's just flowing. That sounds good though. And then I'm also like afraid to turn it on because I'm like I don't have time for that. I have to wait. I have to wait till I'm ready which is a block. You're totally interesting. That's I mean, that's great. It sounds like you're very in touch with your muse, but you're afraid of your muse.
00;44;17;08 - 00;44;43;28
Unknown
That my muse is one of the things that I have just encounter. And it's like this very ruthless. It's like. Like your creativity is a very ruthless thing. It doesn't care what anyone thinks. It doesn't care what like society's wants you to do. It just wants to create. So when you're really open to it, it sounds like you have a good channel, like a good open channel, and you can just let it flow through you.
00;44;43;28 - 00;45;03;24
Unknown
And it's like all the other stuff that you have to get out of the way. Yeah, like maybe even like shame, fear or all that stuff. We. Are you a therapist? I'm learning to therapies myself. It's like you're really good at this. Can we get an hour? Yes, but I think everyone can relate to this. Most of our listeners are writers.
00;45;03;26 - 00;45;27;16
Unknown
And you know, I, I don't imagine I'm the only one who's blocking myself from, from writing, of course. I mean, when all this therapy that I did, like I knew there was stuff there that I didn't know was there, but it's so much more than I realized. There's even like even kind of recently with the book being out in the world, I find myself getting really scared.
00;45;27;17 - 00;45;44;18
Unknown
And then I, I locate this part of myself that's afraid to stick my neck out. Because when you when you put your shit out in the world, like, people can reject you, they can say mean things about you. There's just so many layers. It's I mean, it's a very hard thing writing. It's a very, very hard thing on every level.
00;45;44;19 - 00;46;13;12
Unknown
I think it's worth it. It sounds like you think it's worth it, but. But nobody should ever say it's easy. This is so true. Yeah, it's it's such a vulnerable. But but it's also such a healing experience. Like, I'm sure for you it was very cathartic to write the Spencer character. Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah, it really was. And I actually, when I did that big mushroom trip in Amsterdam, part of the trip was about how like the work that I do for my family and the writing is actually the same thing.
00;46;13;12 - 00;46;32;22
Unknown
How like it's all like processing emotion and like holding emotion and like taking care of people or, I don't know, it's all it's all kind of the same. Have you had anyone reach out? Like, thank you for the experience of reading Spencer and like, you know, with the drug addiction and their relationship not about Spencer and drug addiction.
00;46;32;22 - 00;46;51;24
Unknown
No, actually. Are you getting fan mail? I've gotten a little bit of fan mail. Do you? Really nice, yeah I do. Yes. There there are few enough that I can reply and I am like super grateful and gratified, that somebody would reach out and do that. Especially because you also get this AI scam mail now. So do you get those?
00;46;51;25 - 00;47;13;19
Unknown
Oh my God, it's insane. It's so awful. So then I'm always like trying to like, scan for the ones that aren't gobbledygook. Yeah, yeah. And then it's like, oh, thank you. That's so nice. Like, you mean, you know, so many of our clients because I help people figure out how to get published and how to market. And so many of them are afraid to reach out to their favorite authors because they think, oh, they don't want to hear from me.
00;47;13;19 - 00;47;37;05
Unknown
They're too busy. But it's nice to get fan mail. I mean, you'd have to be a jerk not to, like, getting fan mail. That's so true. Right. Totally. Or just, like, the busiest person on the planet. And you have assistance to look at your fan mail. But, yeah, even then, you wouldn't be offended, you know? Oh, yeah. But maybe that's just us being hard on ourselves that, you know, why would someone want to hear from me?
00;47;37;05 - 00;48;03;04
Unknown
But I encourage people to email Cassandra because this book is so good and I want it to get into many, many hands. It's it was so fun to read, and I'm so glad I discovered you. And thank you so much for joining us on the premise. Thank you so much for having me. This has been really fun. You can learn more about Cassandra at Cassandra.
00;48;03;06 - 00;48;25;05
Unknown
Com you can also follow her on Instagram and Facebook at Cassandra. And we just appreciate you being here. If you like and subscribe to the premise wherever you get your podcasts, it helps us get the word out and it helps authors like Cassandra. This has been another episode of the Premise. You can visit us online at The Premise Pod.
00;48;25;07 - 00;48;36;22
Unknown
Com and you can follow me, your host, on Facebook and Instagram at Jeniffer Thompson Consulting. Until next time, thanks for listening.
00;48;36;24 - 00;48;37;23
Unknown
All right. Goodbye.