The Premise

Jeniffer: Hello, welcome back. I'm Jennifer Thompson. And

I'm Chad Thompson. And this is season seven of the

Premise of the Premise, where we get to the story

behind the storyteller. We've got some amazing

authors lined up for you this season. And guess

what? The San Diego Writers Festival is coming up

in just a couple months, folks. It's March 28th at

the Coronado Public Library. It's free to

everyone, and this year's keynote is Jodi Picolt.

So make sure and mark your calendars. We'll see

you there. And for the premise, we've just got an

amazing lineup of people who are gonna talk about

storytelling and writing and publishing and just,

you know, and cars and cars and pasta. So stay

tuned and be sure to subscribe wherever you get

your podcasts.

Caitlin Rother: Italian Cars, Italian Pasta.

Jeniffer: New York Times best selling author Ken Caitlin

Rother has written or Co authored 16 books, the

latest of which is Hooked, which I have just read

and we're going to talk about today. This is the

first in Rother's new Katrina and Good thriller

series. Her other recent titles are down to the

bone, about the McStay family murders, the updated

edition of Body Parts about serial killer Wayne

Adam Ford, and Death on Ocean Boulevard, about the

mysterious death of Rebecca Zaha. Rother, who

worked as an investigative newspaper reporter for

19 years before quitting the news biz to write

books full time, has appeared more than 250 times

on TV, radio shows and podcasts. She also works as

a book coach, enjoys ocean swimming and plays

keyboards and sings in a jazzy, bluesy trio.

Caitlin, welcome to the premise.

Caitlin Rother: Thanks so much for having me.

Jeniffer: Yeah, I'm really excited to dive into this book

Hooked. there are so many topics. I don't imagine

we'll get to all of them, but let's start with

this.

Tell us about Hooked. What is this book about?

Caitlin Rother: Well, I have so many different sub themes that I

can talk about. it's really difficult for me to

boil it down, but I know you're supposed to have

an elevator pitch, but you know, basically the.

It's the first book in the series. so it launches

with hooked on February 1st. And it's basically a

book about ethics, corruption, suicide, murder,

addiction, and the way that materialism is not

everything. It seems wealthy people behaving

badly. And one thing that I really think is

important is I kind of wrote it to be historical

fiction. And given what we're going through today

with all of these accusations about fake news and

reporters being attacked constantly, and also

journalism really taking a dive in terms of

quality. Just a lot of it has to do with how the

industry has shrunk so much. layoffs, mergers,

buyouts. so many people have left the business

that it's just a tiny version of itself. So I

wanted to pay an. An homage to the way it used to

be. So the book is set in 2015, when reporters

were trusted to tell the truth, and you wanted

them to tell the truth, and people were actually

able to accept the truth for truth. And journalism

was not about misinformation and disinformation

and partisan ideology and law enforcement. We

expected them to protect us, and we called them,

knowing they would come and hopefully do the right

thing and follow the law, as opposed to some of

what we're seeing on the streets today, where

people fear them. So I just felt like this was a

good time to go back and celebrate. It wasn't that

long ago. It was only 10 years ago, but, so much

has changed. And so these are good characters. Ken

Good, the surfing homicide detective, and Katrina

Chopin, who is the investigative reporter. Katrina

lives her life by ethics and integrity. And so

when she meets Ken Goode at Piarti, which is my

favorite Italian restaurant in La Jolla, at the

bar, you know, she. They immediately hit it off.

But he gets called out. You know, a couple dead

bodies. He's got to go. And she goes, oh, you're a

homicide detective? And he says, yeah. And then he

doesn't know she's a reporter until he sees her

the next morning at the news conference. And he

says, you're a reporter because, you know,

detectives and reporters can't date each other

when they're, you know, working on the same case.

It's an eth. Big line that you're not allowed to

cross. So that's a huge theme in the whole series

about how they can't be together. But there's this

sexual tension and professional competition. So

it's, you know, you always say that you can't have

a story without conflict. Well, this has conflict

on so many levels that hopefully that keeps the

suspense level high.

Jeniffer: 100%. Yeah. I loved the, you know, as you say, the

underlying sexual tension. So really, we've got

romance and we've got the typical thriller. And I

gotta go back to your comment, though, because I

went to journalism school myself, and I can just

remember being 19 years old and seeing Diane

Sawyer doing undercover reporting. And I was so

moved and so inspired. That's what I wanted to do

with my life. You know, I wanted to do something

good in the world. And m, to me, the only way to

do that was really through journalism. And reading

your book just brought me back to that feeling. It

stirred within me, that feeling of like, I want to

do good in the world.

Caitlin Rother: Yeah.

Jeniffer: And it's scary. It's scary to see what's happening

in journalism and that people don't believe what

they see. you know, Chad calls it a post truth

society, and that's. That's scary stuff.

Caitlin Rother: Well, and I went into journalism, you know, with

these ideals about right and wrong. And, you know,

I've always had that. Apparently. My mom told me

that I've always been like that since my

personality was formed, I guess, when I was a

child. And it just stayed that way. So I've always

been a rule follower and, you know, so I just

wanted to expose wrongdoing and I wanted to expose

negligence and incompetence. So I covered a lot of

government. So people always think because I was a

true crime author, that I was a police reporter

and I really wasn't. I covered government, the

city hall and politics. And I covered, a lot of

political races. So I was an investigative

reporter, but my area generally was in politics.

And then they also had me do high profile, quick

front page profiles on newsmakers. And those were

always, like super complicated stories where I had

to cram in all this research, and then get it done

in, you know, three days time. And. Yeah, so. And,

and make people upset. A lot of people would get

upset and scared when I would call, so.

Jeniffer: I bet. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, it's a

fantastic book and.

Caitlin Rother: Well, thank you.

Jeniffer: Yeah, well, thank. And I gotta say, you know,

Katrina, she's so meticulous. And the tension also

of her, you know, just this crazy day running

around making these phone calls, trying to find as

much information and as many facts as she can so

she can tell the story well. And then, oh, by the

way, you've got three hours to write it. We have a

deadline today.

Caitlin Rother: You know, always, always. That was my life, which

is stressful.

Jeniffer: But I guess it's, you know, a form of, you know,

adrenaline. That's pretty exciting too.

Caitlin Rother: well, and not all reporters are capable of that.

Not all reporters are investigative reporters. So

when you, when you say investigative reporter, and

I was interviewed by another podcaster who was

mentioning an author who was a TV reporter and

talking about being an investigative reporter. But

the scene that he was relaying was basically on

the spot, breaking news at a crime scene, not the

same thing. So Investigative reporter means you

love paper, you love documents, you love going

through the court files, you love when somebody

hands you a stack of manila folders with a bunch

of old dusty papers in it and you go, oh, that's

exciting. And you find all kinds of great nuggets

and you weave them all the way into your stories.

And you know, it's, it's exciting and you want to

share it with people. And that's why I loved what

I did. And that's why I loved being an author even

more, because I had way more room and space to put

all those little facts right.

Jeniffer: Well, I was just going to ask you, when did you

decide you were going to write like full length

novels? True crime? Not novels. True crime,

nonfiction.

Caitlin Rother: Like, thank you for making that distinction

because a lot of people don't seem to understand

that there's no such thing as a true crime novel.

Yeah, there's no. Often say that makes me crazy.

So when I was, I have been writing fiction for a

lot of my life. when I was just, starting out as a

cub reporter, I was back in Massachusetts. And

just like Katrina, she worked in Northampton,

Massachusetts. Gee, guess what? So did I,

Jeniffer: Write what you know. Write what you know.

Caitlin Rother: Yeah, yeah. Well, I thought, you know, what the

heck, right? So I was, hired as a part time

reporter at the Springfield Union News. because

they had this whole exploitative system where you

had full time reporters and you had a whole bunch

of part timers who worked full time gigs but

didn't get health benefits. So that was really a

lot of fun. So I would work a full time schedule

and I would write these long investigative stories

and that's eventually how I got hired. But,

basically I wouldn't start work. My shift didn't

start till 3 o' clock because those were the days

when we would cover a lot of meetings. Because in

Massachusetts we would cover towns or cities. And

so they're like their own little government. They

don't have really a county government there. They

have state government and they have local

government. And so I would cover, you know, a city

and cover everything in it. Right. And so, it was

just, I had all this time on my hands, so I would

go get my coffee in the morning and I would start,

you know, I would write stories, short stories,

and I was trying to get published short stories

first. And then eventually once I got hired full

time, I still wanted to keep it up. So I started

doing writing workshops and I would produce these

little germs. So they did trigger exercise and

we'd all write for, you know, 15, 20 minutes, and

then if you wanted to, you would read it aloud.

Well, I did that for a year and I produced a bunch

of these little germs that I then put into my

first novel, which is actually the prequel to this

series. It's called Naked Addiction. And it, and

it features the same detective, Ken Good, but not

Katrina Chopin, because she's part of the new

series. So there's, you know, a lot of backstory

stuff, but that's basically how I started, was

writing this novel and I just couldn't get it

published. So 17 years I was going to writing

conferences, I was meeting editors, I was looking

for agents. I just couldn't get published. Because

your first book and trying to get a novel

published, that's pretty hard. So I thought, well,

okay, I'm a newspaper reporter, I'm a professional

writer. Why don't I try nonfiction? And so, yeah.

So, there was a court case, the Kristin Rossum

case. I don't know if you remember that one here

in San Diego. The beautiful toxicologist who

worked at the medical examiner's office who stole,

fentanyl from the lab. And this was. Fentanyl was

not available like it is now. It was basically

very controlled. You'd get it at a hospital, you

could get it at the ME's toxicology lab, but you

couldn't get it on the street. So she basically

poisoned her husband with these, fentanyl patches

or a little vial of fentanyl citrate, which is

like enough in a sweet and low packet would kill

10 people. That's how strong it is. So she somehow

poisoned him. And then she told this whole story

about how he had sedated himself because he was

depressed she was leaving him. And then he

sprinkled red rose petals over himself, you know,

in this dramatic gesture. So anyway, turns out she

was convicted and they found all this fentanyl in

his system. And, that was my first court case that

I covered from beginning to end. And then that was

my first book is called Poisoned Love, based on

that. And I was like, it took off and it was huge.

And so it's my best selling book to date, as a

matter of fact still. So that's how I got started,

was in true crime because I couldn't get my novel

published. And once I did get it published, 17

years it took to get it published. I just didn't

really know what I was doing. So it basically I

needed to do all the research that I did when I

wrote 12 true crime books of interviewing

detectives and reading investigative reports and

following a case from the beginning to the end and

going to the trials and interviewing people and

reading the detectives witness interviews and

listening to audio of them interviewing. So I know

how the detectives think, I know how they talk. I

know about their interaction, you know, with these

witnesses and in what order they do these

investigations, what the protocols are. And now I

know all that stuff. And so now it comes naturally

to my characters. It didn't before. So I feel like

my dream was to write crime fiction, not to write

true crime. It's just that the way it played out

was just the realities of the business and I just

didn't know. I, didn't know. I didn't know what I

didn't know, you know. And so now I know it.

Jeniffer: I love that you share this story that you're

telling us in your author's note and your

acknowledgments of the book. Because it's so

interesting, you know, you read a book and you

think, wow, it's so perfect. It came together that

way, right? Oh, hell no. Oh, hell no. And you

mentioned Michael Connelly had, a tip for you when

you first wrote this book and you were getting

rejections, right?

Caitlin Rother: So people say, oh, you know Michael Connelly?

Well, no, it's not like we're best friends or

anything, but he, My boyfriend when I worked at

the LA Times was his former editor.

Jeniffer: Oh, nice.

Caitlin Rother: So they were friends. And so like, you know, we

all went to a YouTube concert together. You know,

they stayed friends. And so years later, you know,

I'm right trying to write this. I'm trying to get

Naked Addiction published. I still can't get it

published, so I'm getting Poison Love published.

And I sent him an email and I said, hey, would you

be willing to do a blurb for me on this book,

Poison Love? He goes, don't you have a novel

you're working on? I go, yeah, but I don't have a

contract or anything. He goes, well, why don't I

read that? Maybe it'll help. Maybe it'll help you

get published. And I was like, okay, I guess. He

goes, I only do one blurb per author, per

lifetime. So it was a risk because if he didn't

like it, then I would have wasted my one chance at

a Michael Connelly blurb. So anyway, he read the

manuscript and as I said in the acknowledgments, I

was perfectly honest. He said, look, the one thing

you do really well is character. And that's not

something you can learn. That's just natural to

you. Or you either know how to do that or you

don't. But what you don't seem, you know, what you

don't really know how to do as well is police

procedure. And because that's what I'm known for,

I can't really give you a blurb with the title of

the book in it, because people would expect you to

meet a certain standard. And to be honest, your

procedural stuff is kind of amateurish. And I was

like, okay. And he goes, and by the way, I knew

too early it was too obvious who the killer was.

So, anyway, I basically revamped my story and

layered in some stuff and made somebody else the

killer based on his critique, which was so nice of

him to do. And he said, oh, I'm so relieved that

you're open to this. Like, he was worried that I

was going to be upset. I'm like, oh, my God.

Critique from Michael Connelly. God, please bring

it on.

Jeniffer: Amazing.

Caitlin Rother: So, yeah, so then I was able to sell the book, but

then I couldn't sell the sequel, which was hooked

in its original form. And I went through three

ages before I finally found one who was willing to

even send it out again. I had to rewrite it

multiple times. I started it over in a fresh file,

in fact, because my. One of my editors, one of my

agents was like, well, there's too much telling

and not enough showing. And I know you have the

chops to do this, so just open a new file and

start over. I'm like, okay, great.

Jeniffer: I can't imagine.

Caitlin Rother: So, anyway, 17 years later, here's Hooked.

Jeniffer: Worth the wait.

I mean, well, and you say, like, learning how to

tell, think, and talk was so integral. At what

point did you know you needed to add in another

protagonist, a female?

Caitlin Rother: I always had another one. And I think the funny

thing is that I don't think that the agents who

read it early on, they were ready for that,

because detective novels were just one detective

period. Right. You didn't have to. But then I

think on tv, you know, they started having, like,

that stupid show, I'm Sorry, Castle, which I just

think is kind of lame, because the reporter's lame

and the detective seems kind of lame, but that's

kind of one of those couples where. Where you have

a reporter, and it's so unbelievable. It just is

silly to me.

Jeniffer: So I'm just watching it then. Yeah. Yeah. We won't

even go there. Yeah.

Caitlin Rother: I mean, I just happened to see it on tv. But I'm

just using that as an example because it's a

reporter and a police detective. So, But the idea

of that I had from the very beginning, I thought

to myself, well, okay, I think Patricia Cornwell

had a problem early on as well that she needed to

do a female character. And I thought that's what I

wanted to do too. But I really wanted to keep Ken

good. So I wanted to have them both be primary.

I'm going to have them have the book really be

based on the chemistry and the conflict between

them. And that would be what the book, the dynamic

of the book. So it would be the premise and the

dynamic, and then, you know, make the plot, weave

the plot, make that about a whole bunch of other

things. And that's what I did. And I honestly

think that the. The first. The agents that I had

who passed on this were men. I really feel like

women, seem much more excited about this book. I

mean, men like it too, but I have found that the

women seem to really like it and are more willing

to take a chance. And then everybody seems to like

it now. But I'm just saying, early on, they just

didn't seem like, oh, the two protagonists thing.

Oh, no, I don't really know about that. You know,

it's like, come on.

Jeniffer: Yeah.

Caitlin Rother: So I think it was just. Maybe it was before it's

time and now it's.

Jeniffer: I don't know that's entirely possible.

Caitlin Rother: I mean, I love their.

Jeniffer: Dang. Their dynamic. Like the sexual tension and

the chemistry is so alive. And that's another

thing you mentioned in your author note, which I

hate to give it away because the author's note and

the acknowledgments is sort of like dessert to me.

Like, that's the last thing.

Caitlin Rother: And they're at the end of the book for a reason.

Exactly. So no spoilers.

Jeniffer: No spoilers. But, you know, there are people gave

you critiques that you fixed. I mean, you

absolutely nailed it. And this book is.

Caitlin Rother: Thank you.

Jeniffer: Is alive.

I want to talk about the details in your writing,

which I'm sure are directly related to you as an

investigative reporter. You know, it's clear that

you are a meticulous investigative reporter, which

is why you've been so successful. And, you know,

it's just makes our female protagonist just come

alive. Like she's almost solving the case for Ken.

Caitlin Rother: Right.

Jeniffer: But of course, there's back and forth they're

helping each other through, you know, throughout

the book. But she must have been so much fun to

write. And so I just gotta ask you now, did she

come easy or did she evolve over time?

Caitlin Rother: She evolved over time. And Ken Good has evolved

over time too. So remember way back when, when I

wrote Naked Addiction? Honestly, it took 17 years

to get that book published. And it's taken 17

years now to get this book published. So when I

first started writing Ken Good, I was in my 30s.

The characters are in their 30s now. I think I

was. I'm still the same person, but I don't

approach sex in my mind the same way. I don't

about sex the same way. So that was a little bit

of a challenge, to be honest, that I had to put

myself back into the mindset of somebody who was

35 years old. Right. And he's 37. But, so. And

then the other issue was when I first wrote her,

my. My agent who originally told me to, you know,

open a clean file, who didn't really get the

premise, didn't appreciate the premise. I told him

about this sex drug that I made up, which

basically is supposed to make you feel that

infatuation and that attraction that you feel

really, really early on. And it's supposed to just

perpetuate that for as long as you're taking the

drug. So that if you're in a long term

relationship, it's supposed to reinvigorate that

feeling, that, that sexual attraction and that

infatuation. And it's all dopamine, right? So it's

all about dopamine and that burst and that reward

and all of that. He just was like, oh, that sounds

exhausting. And I'm like, oh my God, he's totally

missing the point.

Jeniffer: Totally.

Caitlin Rother: Yeah. Ah, you know, so I mean, I didn't have a

cheerleader to start with. And he said, and by the

way, this isn't. You don't try to make her. You,

make her somebody else. And so I actually

originally had her be a lot more sexual. But I

also figured that just the way society is and

women are so judgmental of other women that I

wanted readers to accept her. So I kind of played

that down. So I want her to be sexual because this

is a book about a, you know, sex drug. Honestly,

that's one of the themes, right? And the

corruption is. Well, the company that is

developing this sex drug, somebody involved in the

company wants to get the FDA to, expedite the

approval, which they don't do unless it's an

emergency COVID vaccine or something. Right? This

is a sex drug, is not an Emergency. So anyway, I.

Jeniffer: That's how you say.

Caitlin Rother: I had to play with her a little bit. And then. And

then Ken Good was much more, I think, kind of. He

seemed like, to me, the way I remember, he was

kind of more frustrated and distrusting and, a

little more angry in Naked Addiction, because it's

about, you know, it opens with him on the Coronado

Bridge, remembering when his mother drove him

there when he was six years old and got out of the

car, put her high heels on the driver's seat, gave

him a melancholy smile, went behind the car and

climbed over the railing and jumped off. So

suicide is part of. Is one of the sub threads in

this series. and it's not in every book, but there

are. There are. That's a theme. And addiction is

as well. and mental illness and all that sort of

fun stuff, which are also themes that I am drawn

to in my nonfiction.

Jeniffer: Yeah.

Caitlin Rother: So anyway, I made her. I kind of shaped them both

based on who I am now, but trying to remember who

I used to be and trying to give her some of my

stories and give them both parts of me, but I had

to. That was a little bit of a challenge since so

much time has passed to try to write younger

characters. But I went through a lot of stuff when

I was young with the dating world and all that

nonsense. So, that's still pretty burned into my

brain.

Jeniffer: I mean, you. You have experience with suicide in

your personal life?

Caitlin Rother: Yes, I do. My. My late husband killed himself. So,

Yeah, I know a lot about it. So. And how it sort

of, kind of sticks with me. And I wrote about it

before he killed himself too. So, I mean, it's

kind of always been there.

Jeniffer: Interesting.

Caitlin Rother: I don't know why, but it's just one of those

things.

Jeniffer: Well, you are a crime writer and.

Caitlin Rother: But I think there's a reason why I became a crime

writer. Right. I mean, you know.

Jeniffer: So when you were a little girl, did you watch the

news or were you interested?

Caitlin Rother: No, not at all.

Jeniffer: Okay.

Caitlin Rother: My, My parents had the LA Times in the house, and

I read the comics, and that was pretty much m.

Maybe the horoscope. I don't know.

Jeniffer: Where did you grow up?

Caitlin Rother: well, I went to, We moved to San Diego when I was,

in the first grade. We went to three. I went to

three different elementary schools in San Diego,

and then we moved to La Jolla when I was in the

summer before seventh grade. So I went to junior

high and high school in La Jolla, went to UCSD for

a couple quarters, transferred to Berkeley, and

then I moved, did my master's at Medill outside of

Chicago, and then I moved to the east coast to

work. And then I made my way back to San Diego and

here you are. Oh, wait, I'm sorry. I came back to

Ventura county and LA and then San Diego. So I've

been all over. And so, so, you know, a lot of

experience in the news business and a lot of

living in different places.

Jeniffer: And in a lot of ways, I think one of the things I

enjoyed most about reading this book was just this

beautiful romp through San Diego and La Jolla in

particular.

Caitlin Rother: Oh, good, thanks.

Jeniffer: And it was so much fun to know exactly where we

are in town, you know, where the scene is, like

right down to the street. But what really

impressed me with how you, you give. You, you did

this really well. Anyone not familiar with San

Diego, you gave them history and details that

bring our city to life without it seeming odd. And

you don't usually see that in fiction. You see it

in reporting for sure. But you managed to marry

those two in a really seamless way that, I really

enjoyed. And I'm sure anyone who doesn't live here

with love as well. No. Did you realize you were

doing that?

Caitlin Rother: Oh, of course, yes.

Jeniffer: Yes, of course you did.

Caitlin Rother: Of course. I mean, I really think it's important

to ground the reader so you know what you're

looking at, you know where you are, you know what

you see, you know what you smell and hear and

feel. And, Wind and Sea, where Ken Good is kind of

his second home. He's like a homing pigeon. he'll

leave and he'll come back to Wind and Sea and just

look at the water and connect with the water and

go put his foot in the water. And he's a surfer,

so he loves the ocean. And that's something that

I've always had in me. So I gave it to my

character. And Wind and Sea basically has served

that same purpose for me. I'm just not a surfer.

I'm a swimmer.

Caitlin Rother: I don't swim down there because the waves are

really rough and they're for surfing. So I swam a

lot of years at La Jolla Cove until I got too

smelly with the sea lions. And so now I swim at La

Jolla shore. So.

Jeniffer: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Boy, it is smelly down there

too, which is such a shame.

Caitlin Rother: Yes.

Jeniffer: So one thing I'd like to point out, that you don't

actually use the word fuck. In this novel, they

don't really swear and it was right. And you don't

even really realize it's happening. So tell us

about this decision to not use that word in the

book.

Caitlin Rother: So in my, true crime books, most of my, books are

published by Kensington, which is now putting out

books through their imprint, Citadel. my editor

basically said to me, if, you know, don't use that

word because we're not going to be able to get

your books into Walmart. They have some sort of, I

don't know, some software or something maybe that

searches your book and they don't want that for

their people, like, okay, whatever. So I started

using asterisks, even for shift, you know, and so,

and the copy editor would put the word in and I'd

be like, well, you know, my editor doesn't want

that in there. And she's like, really? Why? And

so, because this is how they talk. This is how

reporters and this is how, detectives talk. They,

they use that word a lot. You know, they, they use

the word fuck a lot. So. And honestly, I do too. I

don't do it in front of people, probably because I

don't want to be seen as a foul mouth, you know,

sailor, but whatever. But I wanted it to be real,

so I used the word effing. so they're so cussing.

It's just not going to offend anybody because I've

seen other authors posting their reviews and there

are people out there who get really, really

offended and will refuse to buy the book. They'll

give you a bad review. They'll give you like a one

or two star review because you're using

expletives. And I thought, you know, why make an

issue when there doesn't need to be? I mean, I'll

just use effing or frickin. And so I'm still using

the word, but it's in a way that won't offend

people. And that was my, my, that was my thought

on that.

Jeniffer: And it works.

Caitlin Rother: I'm glad, I'm glad because I mean I, I did make a

decision on that. I, every once in a while I think

I might use it. If it's, if it's really necessary,

I'll use it because it's a strong word and it does

need to be used sometimes. And when you're

exclaiming something and you're really mad or

you're pissed off or you hurt yourself, I mean,

I'm going to use that word. I'm not going to Say

effing. You know, I don't say effing unless I'm

trying not to offend somebody. Sure, I tried. Or I

don't use it at all. You know, sometimes what I'll

do is I'll actually take the word out of the

sentence entirely and see how it reads. And if I

don't need it, I'll take it out entirely and not

even use effing. Because the more you use

expletives, even if you're not using the real

word. I just think it's lazy, you know?

Jeniffer: Well, sure.

Caitlin Rother: Like, comedy can be lazy when people cuss too

much, I think.

Jeniffer: Totally. I totally agree with that. I remember one

of the first times I swore in front of a really

good friend of mine. We'd been hanging out for

years, and one day we were sitting in a bar having

a drink, and she said, oh, my God, I've never

heard you come us. And I said, well, that's

because Penelope's always with us. And, you know,

Penelope was a child. She was like, oh, there's a

time and a place. But those words do. I'm, fond of

them, you know.

Caitlin Rother: In the right moment. In the right moment. In the

right moment. And with. With someone that you feel

safe with. That's very true.

Jeniffer: That's very true.

Caitlin, do you write every day?

Caitlin Rother: I go through phases, and, the. My main frustration

is my body. My body does not want me to write

every day and does not want me to write as much as

I want to write. So, I. You know, I worked for 20

years as a reporter, and I typed a huge amount. So

I put a lot of strain on my body with adrenaline

and deadlines and typing. I used to type my

interviews, which was extra typing on top of

writing my story. I would type all my interviews,

and I typed very fast. Wow. So I would write as

fast as people were talking. Like, I was. Was a

transcriber, which was dumb. So I basically

overused my body over time, and I have very small

bones, and I don't have a lot of muscle tissue.

And so I end up using my tendons too much, and I

have developed problems in my neck. And over time,

I've had periods where I've had to write an entire

book using voice activated software because I

have, just overtaxed my body too much. It just

gives out. So I can't write every day, and I can't

write as many hours a day as I have in me. So I

have to pace myself. Nonetheless, I have I am

like, up to what, almost 60,000 words on a book

that I started on December 13th. So I think that's

kind of a lot. I have weird standards, you know,

of what is not enough a lot. Do you know what I

mean? And that's. I've always been a workaholic. I

just love to work. And you say, oh, 16 books. When

do you have the time? Well, because that's all I

do is work. I don't have a big social life. I

don't have a giant friend crowd. I don't drink

really much anymore because of various health

issues. So I don't go out that much. Anyway, I

work because I enjoy working and I enjoy putting

out books and I enjoy, positive feedback from

people who enjoy my books. And so. That's pretty.

And I play music, when I can, and that's what I

do.

Jeniffer: Yeah, I enjoy working.

Caitlin Rother: I enjoy working. It's fun and it helps me escape

all the nonsense out there. There's so much

garbage happening right now that is so upsetting.

If you let it bother you, I just start writing the

story and I forget about it. Indeed. That's the

fun part.

Jeniffer: Absolutely.

And you're a writing coach as well?

Caitlin Rother: Yeah, not as much anymore. I don't. You know,

people don't seem to really know that I'm a coach

these days, so I don't do that as much. but. But

when I was teaching, I used to teach at UCSD

Extension and San Diego Writers Inc. And my

students would work with me after the class was

over and I would get a lot of coaching clients

that way. But, I mean, I still do it. If anybody

wants to do a session, I'm happy to do that on the

phone. so I don't do that much of it because I'm

also writing all the time these days.

Jeniffer: Sure. Well.

Caitlin Rother: But yeah, I mean, if somebody wants a coaching

session, I still do do it.

Jeniffer: Well, they can find you on your website, which is.

Caitlin Rother: That's right.

Jeniffer: Caitlinrother.com. so if someone did hire you,

what kind of. Is there a specific genre, that you

enjoy working on with clients?

Caitlin Rother: Well, I, I really think I'm the best at doing

front end developmental editing. So I prefer to

talk through ideas with people and research. You

know, research has always been really big for me

because research, when you're doing nonfiction and

true crime is just as important as the writing.

Honestly, it's a separate skill. and people don't

know where to find information. And I've been

trained in that and trained myself to do that for

so many years that, you know, when I started out

as a reporter, it just didn't occur to me that I

could go to this place or that place to find this

information or that information. I just didn't

know. Well, you don't know until you learn, until

you know where the things are. Right. So I help

people with, how to research, where to research,

what to research. I try to steer people, you know,

towards, you know, is this idea marketable or not?

And if it isn't, how, what is it missing? so I,

that's what I like to do the most. There are

people who say, oh, can I send you, I wrote a book

and I put it online and I'm like, well, why didn't

you come to me before you put it online? You know,

because then you read it and you're like, ay, ay,

yai. And then I worked with one woman and she

basically realized she had to take it down and

rewrite the whole thing because she didn't really

know what she was doing. So people who put up

books and they don't, you know, they're trying to

put. Do a true crime book, but they don't know how

to write narrative, they don't know how to write a

scene. They don't know what a scene is, and they

don't know how to make research into a scene. They

don't know any of that. It doesn't even occur to

them because they've never learned a critical

analysis of what makes a good book, you know, So I

have to, That's basically what I start with. I

say, hey, do you know how to write a scene? Let me

teach you how to write a scene. Here are the

elements. And so that's basically what I do.

Jeniffer: Nice.

Caitlin Rother: I mean, it depends on what they want too.

Sometimes people just want to talk and talk

through some ideas. I'm happy to do that too. And

I'm happy to read and critique, you know, a

chapter or whatever. If, if, then I can tell them

what they're doing right and what they're not

doing right and help them steer them on how to

improve. Like this part here is what you want to

do all the way through. You're just doing it in

one paragraph. So do. Do that all the time. Stuff

like that. More of that.

Yeah.

Jeniffer: I know that you are already working on the next

books in the series. Can you tell us where you're

at and when we can expect to get the next book?

Caitlin Rother: Yeah, the next book is called 17 Years. No,

actually I'm much faster now. Like I said, I just

wrote like 60,000 words in a month and a half. So

I'm doing much, much better. So staged is the next

book in the series and it is coming out in June,

so it is available for pre order already.

Jeniffer: Oh my gosh.

Caitlin Rother: I've already written books three and four as well.

So they are under submission with my editor.

Jeniffer: Awesome.

Caitlin Rother: And I hope to be. I hope to get some good news on

at least book three. And then we're not sure

whether she says that debut authors, often they

like to end their series with three books. And no

one told me that. And I wrote book four. So

whether or not she decides she wants to publish

it, I'm going to publish it no matter what because

I really. It's where I feel the story should go.

Jeniffer: Got it.

Caitlin Rother: That's with the story arc. And so the one I'm

writing now was because until she decides whether

she's gonna buy three and four, I needed something

else to do. I already wrote those two books and

I'm m not gonna sit on my thumb. So I started a

new character and a new, plot. And I don't know if

this is gonna be a recurring character or if this

is going to be a standalone, but it, is going to

be a female sheriff's detective this time because

we really don't have the way. If you look at the

crime fiction world, there are authors who have

kind of an area just like in true crime. We're

kind of geographically oriented. So there really

aren't that many crime writers in San Diego. And

there, you know, some. So I said, hey, we don't

have, a sheriff's detective character, female

character. Nobody's writing that in San Diego. So

that seems like a good idea in terms of the

market. And also to do something different from

the existing series. I want to do something

different, start a different series or start a,

you know, just do a separate book. And so that's

what I came up with. And I had an idea, that came

to me when I was sitting at dinner in Coronado. So

I decided that it would be. My brand is kind of

Coronado and La Jolla. So it takes place in those

two cities. And so that's where the characters are

from. And I don't want to say too much more, but,

I'm really enjoying writing this one and I'm, I

just. It's totally different. It's totally

different.

Jeniffer: I love it. Well, that's exciting. So we have a lot

to look forward to from you. So thank you.

Caitlin Rother: No, thank you.

Jeniffer: I have one more question before we close. A lot of

our listeners are writers. M. And you know, we'd

like to maybe end with some advice from you.

Caitlin Rother: Well, I, have a friend who just hit the USA best

selling author list with, with one of her recent

books. And she goes 32 years to be an overnight

success. And so that's kind of how I feel. Here I

am, book number 16. Took me 17 years to get it

published. Like I said, it was supposed to be part

of a series. And the first book took 17 years to

get published too. You know, you don't win if you

give up. You have to just keep going. And I think

people either don't have the talent and give up or

they don't stick with it long enough because this

is the exception are the people who do well right

away. I was really lucky with my very first book

that got published, Poison. Love that it sold so

well. I mean, it's over 100,000 copies. So I mean,

for a first book, that was pretty amazing. And

that was in the days when, print runs were. The

first print run was 40,000 books.

Jeniffer: Sure.

Caitlin Rother: I mean, today I think it's like 3,000 books

because it's just a different world. And so we

have audiobooks now. We have Kindle, which we

didn't really have, you know, back then. And if we

did, they would put the ebook out like two years

later, you know. So things have changed a lot. You

have to really be able to reinvent yourself and

you've got to really keep up with everything

because the marketing and promotions are

constantly changing. It takes so much of your

time. And if you aren't willing to do that part of

it, you aren't going to sell books. So that's one

of the toughest things. I remember when I would

teach writing workshops, I would get some of these

students who refused, like they didn't want to use

their real name and they didn't want to sell books

in a bookstore or hold any kind of public event

because they were. They just didn't want to do

that. They just didn't think they needed, needed

to do that. And I'm like, well, you're not gonna

sell any books. You think the book is just gonna

sell itself. You need to actually be out there and

network and talk to people. And I'm not that great

at that either, but I do get out there as much as

I can.

Jeniffer: So according to your bio, you've been on more than

250 podcasts, TV shows, and radio. I mean, that's

pretty, right?

Caitlin Rother: Oh, I know. I'm fine with doing that stuff, but

I'm the networking stuff with real people outside

of my house. I don't seem to have a lot of time

for that because I'm so busy working on something.

Jeniffer: Yeah, well, you're a writer. I mean, that's.

Caitlin Rother: I'm a writer. And so. And so, you know, I'm not as

comfortable. And Covid really did a number on me

in terms of my ability to, like, deal with other

people. It just took me a long time to kind of

reintegrate into society because, you know, all

that time alone, it's just. It does a number on

you. And then you're like, I don't remember how to

talk to this person. What do I say? You know?

Anyway, I'm doing much better. And I've been on a

never ending book tour for the past year. This is

my third book book. and then I'm gonna have staged

out in June, so I'm gonna have four books out in

like 15 months.

Jeniffer: Wow.

Caitlin Rother: Which is just. It's crazy though. I mean, I keep

track of. I went for four years with no books, and

then now I've got four books in 15 months. And.

And the other thing is, you know, how many times

are you gonna. Are people gonna come out for you

and buy your book? You know, when you have them

come out that close together? So it's been very

exciting, but it's been tricky, you know? Know. So

anyway, I'm not complaining. It's just. Yeah, it's

just been. It's just, you know, these are the

things that you have to learn how to juggle. And

so writing is not just sitting at your computer in

your house by yourself. You got to do all this

other stuff. And. Yeah, hopefully you get on tv

and hopefully you get on podcasts, and hopefully

people think you're interesting enough that they

have you back when you have another book come out

and, and you make contacts and don't give up, and

you make jokes and you entertain and you tell a

good story and that's. That's what you do.

Jeniffer: Yeah. Yeah.

Caitlin Rother: Do you sell books at your trio gigs? No, I do not.

I don't. We don't play that often. And I, you

know, I've thought about it, but I'm like, I don't

know, it seems like. It seems like they're

interested in hearing about it, but they're not

there for that.

Jeniffer: Sure.

Caitlin Rother: And vice versa.

Jeniffer: Yeah. Yeah.

Caitlin Rother: Like I had a friend who's like, oh, you and Gaza

is my partner. I play with as well. You guys

should sing at your book signing at Barnes and

Noble. I'm like, know. I don't think so.

Jeniffer: Well, I don't know. I think that'd be kind of

cool. I saw you sing in Nashville.

Caitlin Rother: Yeah, well.

Jeniffer: Which was awesome.

Caitlin Rother: Oh, thank you. That was. That was fun. I mean, and

I needed to do that, you know, I. And it was good

for me. It was fun.

Jeniffer: That was the killer, killer Nashville Writers

Conference for our listeners. Well, Caitlin

Rother, thank you so much for joining us here on

the Premise today. We really appreciate.

Caitlin Rother: Well, I really appreciate you having me on. It was

fun.

Jeniffer: Yeah. And I'm excited to read book. Well, I guess

it's really book three, but we'll call it book two

in the series.

Caitlin Rother: Well, yeah, it's, book two. Got it. But yeah, I'm

calling Naked Addiction the prequel. Got it.

Jeniffer: Okay. Okay.

Caitlin Rother: Okay. Yeah.

Jeniffer: Well, folks, you can learn more about Caitlyn@

CaitlinRother.com subscribe to her substack Aur

and be sure to follow her on BookBub, where you

can find ebook discounts and other goodies. Follow

her on Facebook, Facebook, Caitlin Rother, and

Instagram at the real caitlinrother, all separated

by underscores.

This has been another episode of the Premise. You

can visit us online@thepremisepod.com and

subscribe and rate or review the Premise wherever

you get your podcasts. These reviews really help

us get the word out about authors like Caitlin,

and they help increase our subscriber base. Also,

folks, be sure to mark your calendar. The seventh

annual San Diego Writers Festival is happening on

March 28 at the Coronado Public Library, and this

year's keynote is Jodi Picolt. So that's going to

be a fantastic day. Then again, that is on March

28th. You can follow me, your host, on Instagram

Enfergrace or follow me on Facebook Enfer Thompson

Consulting. Until next time, thanks for listening.

Goodbye, M. Goodbye.